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Harness line length, is 22 in. too short?
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yargerd



Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
bwill808 wrote:
12 foot hawaiian waves ... pretty sure those are 34's.

Unless he goes DTL hooked in, isn't line length irrelevant to his reason for being out there?


No, because he is able to easily slog a board-sail combo that likely isn't on much of a plane until he's found his wave. Plus that, when he finds his wave, he can put a lot of weight right in the center of the board to catch said wave easily when not on plane. Long lines are very useful in this situation. That's the reason the wave guys like long lines.

Iso, I don't want to tell you something that you already know. So i'll elaborate just for the heluva it. Riding the wave generates enough apparent wind to power the sail and plane the board. Many wave sailors are slogging around until they catch their wave. One of the reasons for this is that if they are powered up when they drop in, they are WAY powered up down the line, so much so they can't do anything. Slogging a wave kit is exhausting, even for superman. The long lines let you slog a modern wave-style board/sail combo and allow you to have greater mast foot pressure to balance everything while slogging and catching the wave.

I recall reading earlier in the posts above, Iso, that you used some 38 or something plus lines twenty something years ago, or whatever. I think you're pretty technical, so get your head around this. Comparing long lines from twenty plus years ago to today is not apples to apples. The reason is that the old sails were not at all draft stable and had a very high center of effort. To stabilize this system, sailors would use long lines with a wide spread to "capture" the center of effort. This would help prevent getting pitched when the CE changes due to point of sail and how much wind the sail is seeing. Now, when your lines are spread this long, the distance between the hook and the boom is not directly comparable to what you'd have with modern gear. Meaning: long lines with a big spread on old gear are probably about like medium lines on modern wave gear. Consider the new. Now, the center of pressure barely changes. I think most folks are running their lines about 3-4 inches apart splitting the CE. The longer lines, and the stable CE, and the location of the foot on a new board allow you to slog with MOST of your weight, right in the middle of the board. Plus that, you are incredibly stable and able to manipulate the sail with little effort. If you don't believe the above, draw diagrams of old and new and account for mast track position, foot position, lift center for the board, mast angle, and CE location related to the midpoint of the lines on the boom.

Look at some youtube of slogging modern stuff. The mast is near vertical. With long lines, all of the weight is right on the mast foot. This provides the highest efficiency. This means the smallest sail rigged, which in turn means the most maneuverable and fun on the wave and in the righteous gorge swell.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13317

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your line length logic is valid, but:
1. He's out there to ride the waves, not for slogging. Does he go DTL hooked in? One of the reasons I quit skiing was the time wasted on lifts; I realize that slogging is a necessary evil in a true wave sailing venue, but it is even worse than a waste of time elsewhere.

2. Those 37" lines were what was available. I had to spread them so far apart to get their effective length acceptable that they kept breaking due to the resultant high tension, despite their being stainless steel.

3. One of Andy Brandt's quickest studies regularly runs long lines spread way apart (and his booms rest 6" forward of the tail). It all goes back to skinning cats.

4. I've explained at great length the many reasons why I prefer to rig big. Your minimalist preference is an option, not "the solution". If I manage to hit 80 in another decade I'll probably be compelled to rig small, but then I'll have to change my chosen sailing style.
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youwindsurf



Joined: 18 Aug 2012
Posts: 348
Location: North Shore High School

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

“You can't win an argument. You can't because if you lose it, you lose it; and if you win it, you lose it.”


― Dale Carnegie, How to Win Friends and Influence People
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spennie



Joined: 13 Oct 1995
Posts: 714
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

10 pages of 92 (now 93) postings on harness line length? Really? Give it a break, guys, it's all been said!

Sheesh!

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yargerd



Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
He's out there to ride the waves, not for slogging. Does he go DTL hooked in? One of the reasons I quit skiing was the time wasted on lifts; I realize that slogging is a necessary evil in a true wave sailing venue, but it is even worse than a waste of time elsewhere.


Get your head around a hypothetical situation. What if it were true that in a given wave sailing session that 90% of the time was spent slogging and positioning to catch a wave and 10% of the time were spent riding DTL?

In the Gorge, the long lines permit a person to plane a board with a small sail. Some, maybe most on wave-type stuff, like this.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13317

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yargerd wrote:
What if it were true that in a given wave sailing session that 90% of the time was spent slogging and positioning to catch a wave and 10% of the time were spent riding DTL?

They would have to be epic waves, braved for bragging rights only, before I'd devote 90% of my precious TOW to that ratio and degree of punishment to reward. That's why sky diving, skiing to some degree, golf, and countless other endeavors with low return rates do not interest me. Hell, driving and rigging time is bad enough.

Chris Wyman once asked me why I don't turn down the line at the OR coast, specifically Agate Beach. Answer: At my skill level (he was a baby grommet then, so it was along time ago), it takes me 10 times as long to get back upwind after I do, whereas I can jump and slash and play to my heart's content 100% of the time if I rig bigger and head out to sea, sometimes out of sight of land. It's a tradeoff, and I didn't find wind often enough to pay my dues DTL at the coast.

In the Gorge, Idonwanna use (relatively) small sails. The price is too high.
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yargerd



Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
yargerd wrote:
What if it were true that in a given wave sailing session that 90% of the time was spent slogging and positioning to catch a wave and 10% of the time were spent riding DTL?

They would have to be epic waves, braved for bragging rights only, before I'd devote 90% of my precious TOW to that ratio and degree of punishment to reward. That's why sky diving, skiing to some degree, golf, and countless other endeavors with low return rates do not interest me. Hell, driving and rigging time is bad enough.

Chris Wyman once asked me why I don't turn down the line at the OR coast, specifically Agate Beach. Answer: At my skill level (he was a baby grommet then, so it was along time ago), it takes me 10 times as long to get back upwind after I do, whereas I can jump and slash and play to my heart's content 100% of the time if I rig bigger and head out to sea, sometimes out of sight of land. It's a tradeoff, and I didn't find wind often enough to pay my dues DTL at the coast.

In the Gorge, Idonwanna use (relatively) small sails. The price is too high.


Iso, if this is your style, you really should try kiting. I mean this in earnest, it's fun. No reason a person can't enjoy two wind sports.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13317

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The vast majority of the kiting I see in the eastern Gorge not only LOOKS boring (except for the big air), but apparently IS, if the time kiters spend sitting on shore despite good wind is any indication. The extremely small percentage I see carving the swell aggressively -- it's flat out rare -- took many years to get good at it, and almost all of them are very slow.

As for kiting's main attraction for me, big air ... I hope I've learned my lesson in that regard.
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beaglebuddy



Joined: 10 Feb 2012
Posts: 507

PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike, we are going to force you to use long lines, it's that simple so get used to the idea. You really have no choice. Mad
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13317

PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy

Well, I do have one of those stainless steel 37s in my WSing junk drawer. I best dig it out and get used to it before I get assimilated.
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