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Harness line length, is 22 in. too short?
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PeterRhonda



Joined: 05 Jun 2013
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had adjustable lines for 3 years trying to get the right trim for me (6'4" but not long arms, wave harness, Gorge sailing). I finally settled on 26" lines but after a month decided I was a little too jammed for gusty conditions and moved to 28" which are perfect. Rhonda was also looking a little jammed on her lines so she moved up to the 26" and it immediately improved her stance and sail trim.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14237

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another way to experiment is with lines whose length is determined by where you tie the knot. By using a figure 8 rather than an overhand knot, it's easy to untie and move the knot. Fine tuning can also be achieved by changing the spread of the line attachment points on the boom.

Every few years I'll re-experiment with line length for a few weeks to see what I'm missing, but the last couple of those experiments reached the same conclusions.

Of course, that may change as our joints age, as fxop is implying. Right now, I usually have a lot of weight on my legs because I'm doing the best imitation I can of onshore DTL wave sailing. When I get too old for that, hanging my butt from the booms might get important to me and my line length choice may change. Right now the weak link is my forearm tendons, so maneuvering while hooked in is vital on long days ... MUCH more important than point-to-point speed.

So MUCH comes down to individual priorities.
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yargerd



Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that there are a lot of variables here. Some that have not been considered.

* Sailor ability affects length. When I was starting, I liked shorter lines because I was more afraid to commit to the harness. This gave me the ability to get weight in the harness without feeling totally committed. Now, I like the long lines.

* Gear has changed a lot in the last 15 years. Just look at how short the mast tracks are now. A board has a pretty well engineered sweet spot, and newer boards are a touch squattier than their ancestors and are also tremendously more efficient. With longer lines, you can get your cg low and put a lot of weight right in the center of the board - the best spot for it. This was not the case when the mast tracks were far forward and the sails had a high ce.

* As I mentioned before, I went to Pritchard's clinic. I asked lot's of questions (too many, he probably remembers me as being "that irritating question guy"). I was told that having longer lines allows for the rig to be away from your body, providing the best maneuverability of the SAIL. Such allows the sail to be optimally powered. It was fascinating to watch him and McGillivray rip around on 85 liter boards and 4.2s in tiny puffs of wind. The gorge sailors couldn't even water-start, and they were just jammin'. Partially, this is because they could slog in long lines and feather the board onto plane by perfectly manipulating the sail. I don't think this can be done if lines are too short.

* Harness line length, like sail size, is proportional to the sailor's body dimensions. Monkey-armed man = long lines. Petite woman or child = shorter lines.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14237

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yargerd wrote:
As I mentioned before, I went to Pritchard's clinic. I asked lot's of questions (too many, he probably remembers me as being "that irritating question guy"). I was told that having longer lines allows for the rig to be away from your body, providing the best maneuverability of the SAIL. Such allows the sail to be optimally powered. It was fascinating to watch him and McGillivray rip around on 85 liter boards and 4.2s in tiny puffs of wind. The gorge sailors couldn't even water-start, and they were just jammin'. Partially, this is because they could slog in long lines and feather the board onto plane by perfectly manipulating the sail. I don't think this can be done if lines are too short.

Yet one of our resident bona fide experts, who lives and surf sails in light air land, insists that we should not hook in until planing.
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 1258
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an alternative thought the other direction. I used to run harness
lines in the 28 to 30 inch range, and I was typically very hiked out. I liked
the longer lines because as a novice, I wasn't manouvering much.
Then I discoverd swell riding, and found that in order to switch from
1 rail to the other quickly I needed to be more upright in my riding style.
It allowed me to change directions more quickly, and my 28" lines would
cause a number of jibe-ectomies. I continued to shorten them up
until I eventually settled on 22s (or 24s). I'd suggest people try
changing their line length until they like the result, instead of depending
on hearsay from whatever source. Long lines rocked the sport 30
years ago, and since I am getting older now, maybe I'll want to switch
back to them.

-Craig


yargerd wrote:
I think that there are a lot of variables here. Some that have not been considered.

* Sailor ability affects length. When I was starting, I liked shorter lines because I was more afraid to commit to the harness. This gave me the ability to get weight in the harness without feeling totally committed. Now, I like the long lines.

* Gear has changed a lot in the last 15 years. Just look at how short the mast tracks are now. A board has a pretty well engineered sweet spot, and newer boards are a touch squattier than their ancestors and are also tremendously more efficient. With longer lines, you can get your cg low and put a lot of weight right in the center of the board - the best spot for it. This was not the case when the mast tracks were far forward and the sails had a high ce.

* As I mentioned before, I went to Pritchard's clinic. I asked lot's of questions (too many, he probably remembers me as being "that irritating question guy"). I was told that having longer lines allows for the rig to be away from your body, providing the best maneuverability of the SAIL. Such allows the sail to be optimally powered. It was fascinating to watch him and McGillivray rip around on 85 liter boards and 4.2s in tiny puffs of wind. The gorge sailors couldn't even water-start, and they were just jammin'. Partially, this is because they could slog in long lines and feather the board onto plane by perfectly manipulating the sail. I don't think this can be done if lines are too short.

* Harness line length, like sail size, is proportional to the sailor's body dimensions. Monkey-armed man = long lines. Petite woman or child = shorter lines.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14237

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgoudie1 wrote:
Then I discoverd swell riding, and found that in order to switch from 1 rail to the other quickly I needed to be more upright in my riding style. It allowed me to change directions more quickly

Yippers ... and I often go rail to rail to rail to rail to rail ... etc. ... much more often, quickly, and powerfully than your videos show you doing. I couldn't do that hiked out with long lines even if my arms were a foot longer.
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yargerd



Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
yargerd wrote:
As I mentioned before, I went to Pritchard's clinic. I asked lot's of questions (too many, he probably remembers me as being "that irritating question guy"). I was told that having longer lines allows for the rig to be away from your body, providing the best maneuverability of the SAIL. Such allows the sail to be optimally powered. It was fascinating to watch him and McGillivray rip around on 85 liter boards and 4.2s in tiny puffs of wind. The gorge sailors couldn't even water-start, and they were just jammin'. Partially, this is because they could slog in long lines and feather the board onto plane by perfectly manipulating the sail. I don't think this can be done if lines are too short.

Yet one of our resident bona fide experts, who lives and surf sails in light air land, insists that we should not hook in until planing.


Yeah, there is a point where it comes down to preference and what you want out of windsurfing. I have found that I like to rig the smallest sail possible to get a good plane. This keeps the rig and board loose and fun and maneuverable. I really don't like being overpowered. I think this is more of a wave perspective. Now, I have been out at times on a 4.7 and seen the slalom guys rip by on much bigger gear and totally different purposed boards with mega fins that look like machetes. This is a completely different aspect of the sport, and it is not as common around here (gorge) as the 3.7 - 4.7 wave sail crowd. For what I do, wave sailing principles apply nicely: longer lines, modern wave board, modern wave fin, modern wave sail, modern waist harness.

In my opinion, techniques in windsurfing are not applicable across all disciplines. Slalom racing is not wave-style sailing.
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bwill808



Joined: 09 Sep 2012
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UpThis Palokows rig from last November 8-12 knots 12 foot hawaiian waves. He was riding the boom pretty low pretty sure those are 34's. Deleted the orignal photo but had a screen shot


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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2396

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

22"is perfect, for 5'10" rider with short arms, perfectly powered on 6.0 slalom/freeride gear.
Don't plan on slogging in the harness lines.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14237

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bwill808 wrote:
12 foot hawaiian waves ... pretty sure those are 34's.

Unless he goes DTL hooked in, isn't line length irrelevant to his reason for being out there?
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