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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2763

PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Fick-shun wrote:
FINALLY, the AGW issue is definitively settled, as reported in the WSJ this week. The sky IS falling, and we have nothing in our future but pestilence, plagues, fewer jobs (really!), decimation of the world's poor, floods, hurricanes, rain on our parades, some clouds, blowing dust, the sun rising in the west, Democrats running all three seats of U.S. power, two people without Medicaid, the complete cessation of wind in the Gorge, and kites taking over Manhattan.

The proof? Computer climate models programmed to predict that the sky IS falling, and we have nothing in our future but pestilence, plagues, fewer jobs (really!), decimation of the world's poor, floods, hurricanes, rain on our parades, some clouds, blowing dust, the sun rising in the west, Democrats running all three seats of U.S. power, two people without Medicaid, the complete cessation of wind in the Gorge, and kites taking over Manhattan.

The only cure is an immediate transfer of $100,000,000,000,000 USD to the IPCC, to be given freely to any other nation that wants it.

My God, people; when will you catch on?

Work on it, Mikey. Work really hard on it --- and you can somehow make it all Obama's fault going back to 1920, or so.
.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5560

PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT--I was in a workshop with Richard Somerville week before last. He's from Scripps, once of the most respected research institutions in the world. He said two things that I think matter a lot to the question of cycles. First, he said that the ice ages and anomalies of the past were due to changes in the earth's orbit. Second, he said that the impacts of climate change will last for centuries because the residence time for heat in the ocean is on the order of 1000 years.

He said a number of other things, like CO2 levels are the highest they have been in 800,000 years, that sea level rise has accelerated in the last 20 years, that there is more water vapor in the atmosphere than there was 30 years ago, that the volume of ice is shrinking, that the ocean has absorbed about 30% of the CO2 emitted and most of the heat, but even at that the rise from 1958, 314 ppm, to present, 400 ppm, is startling. Even Iso's sources acknowledge the relationship between CO2 and warming.

Obviously climate (as opposed to weather) is the sum of a number of different physical factors. The climate does not depend solely on CO2, and deforestation has contributed to CO2 increases. But with that said, the stakes are way to high to listen to the deniers who are paid by the oil and coal companies. Legitimate skeptics like your source are a different matter entirely, and add to the discussion. Iso couldn't find such a source, or quote it correctly, if it shortened his rehab.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5560

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometime in May, mrgybe made a personal attack on me and the Port of Oakland on this thread. He cherry-picked articles that, through his selective choice of material and disinterest in the truth, sought to support his thesis that people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. It began with this:

Quote:
this same poster relentlessly blasts the oil industry for polluting the air and water, when, for 15 years he was directly responsible for environmental matters at the Port of Oakland, the worst polluter in the entire area for decades Was that his fault? Of course not. Life is more complicated than that. I'm smart enough to understand that not everything is black and white.


And then….

Quote:
In November the Port of Oakland Commission voted to indefinitely postpone making good on the $5 million commitment in the Port's Clean and Safe Ports Plan to help subsidize diesel-soot filters for polluting diesel trucks serving the Port. Meanwhile residents of West Oakland and truck drivers who serve the Port continue to breathe some of the most polluted air in the nation - and to suffer the severe health effects that go with it. The Port's excuse is that the current economic situation is impacting cargo shipments, causing a decrease in volume and associated shipping activity.

And then:

Quote:
n the post above he dismisses the Sierra Club assertion that the Port of Oakland withdrew it's pledge of $5 million for pollution mitigation and calls me a liar for citing it. How about the Oakland Tribune then?

"Community groups and clean air advocates and regulators were counting on big commitments from the Port of Oakland this fall to slash diesel truck pollution that has contributed to a higher cancer risk in West Oakland. Now they are fuming, saying the city-owned seaport has pulled back rather than pay out for cleaner air, and public health as well as the port's long term financial health may suffer as a result. Oakland port commissioners voted Nov. 19 to indefinitely postpone a planned $5 million contribution to a government pool of grants for owners of old trucks to install diesel soot filters required by the state for trucks that want to keep visiting ports after Jan. 1, 2010."
http://www.insidebayarea.com/oaklandtribune/ci_11150757

In the wake of outrage from citizen/ environmental groups and the local media, a year later the Port grudgingly agreed to reinstate their pledge. Kicking and screaming, the Port was pressured into making some small inroads into the damage they have caused over decades. And yet, their former long time environment manager constantly berates the oil industry for it's environmental response. He should look closer to home.


This afternoon I was invited to a press conference at the Port as the former director of environmental programs, a little more than 8 years after I retired, to celebrate the dedication of the next piece in the Port of Oakland’s air quality program—shore power so ships can tie up at the docks. Speakers from West Oakland Neighbors, the Environmental Protection Agency, the California Air Resources Board, and the Bay Area Air Quality Management District were there to praise the Port’s air quality efforts. That effort started in 1999 when I convinced the Port to settle a lawsuit with West Oakland Neighbors and pledge $9 million to reduce air quality impacts. All of that money has been spent, another $5 million from the Port, and additional money from the State’s Carl Moyer Program, the Maritime Administration, and the Environmental Protection Agency. As a result of those efforts, diesel particulate emissions from the port are reduced by 70% from their 2005 levels, and SOX emissions are reduced by 80%. Mrgybe’s claim above about the indefinite postponement is wrong—an example of being able to lie by stringing together a set of half-truths. Instead, the Port met its commitment in the settlement agreement to clean up 200 trucks, devoted an additional $5 million separate from the settlement, which was delayed for a while, adopted regulations restricting older trucks, and applied for multiple grants. As a result, 1800 trucks serving the Port, not the 200 identified in the settlement agreement, have been cleaned up.

Of course this depended on a stick as well as carrots—the California Air Resources Board adopted a series of regulations that convinced ship owners and truck owners to apply for grants, and made the owners of old trucks realize that they couldn’t continue to operate dirty trucks. Rapid and early success in reducing emissions took regulation by government, and cooperation by industry. The requirement to provide electric shore power and shut down the ships engines took statewide regulations so that it didn't change the competitive balance between ports.

During this period of time what did mrgybe’s industry do? Why they fought updating the public health regulations to toughen the standards for diesel particulate emissions. Why they fought the science of climate change and tried to hide the money they spent to hire liars to misrepresent science. Why they tried to repeal California’s climate change laws, and fought to end grants by MARAD and EPA to reduce diesel emissions.

Mrgybe had the wrong proverb. There is a proverb that says if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. If you live in the glass house and keep trying to prevent the solutions, you are indeed part of the problem. I know well what it took the Port of Oakland to change sides—but they have truly been part of the solution.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5560

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the crowing by the denier industry about land temperatures being flat for 15 years, along with their ignoring the warming of the oceans, does not amount to any scientific conclusion that climate change due to increased CO2 is not a problem. Quite the opposite, with the largest typhoon in history linked to warmer oceans:

Quote:
Raveena Aulakh Environment, Published on Mon Nov 11 2013

The United Nations climate talks have begun with a tearful plea, a fast and a standing ovation.
“I will voluntarily refrain from eating food (during this conference) until a meaningful outcome is in sight,” Philippine envoy Naderev Sano said in Warsaw on Monday, blaming the lack of concrete action on global warming for fuelling a monster typhoon that killed more than 10,000 people in his country.
“What my country is going through as a result of this extreme climate event is madness.
“We can stop this madness. Right here in Warsaw,” said Sano, whose words were met with a standing ovation.

Delegates from almost 200 countries are in Warsaw for two weeks of talks to try to lay the groundwork for a new pact to fight global warming. They will negotiate the outline of a global deal to be signed in Paris in 2015, which will go into force in 2020.
Whether the tears and the ovation will lead to any real deal is still to be seen. However the spectre of Typhoon Haiyan is sure to loom over the talks, said John M.R. Stone, an adjunct professor at Carleton University.
“It is possible that Haiyan may have an effect (on the delegates),” said Stone. “I hope we don’t have to wait for more of these tragic events before we seriously work on cutting emissions.”
Climate-change scientists have warned that global warming will lead to such extreme and unpredictable weather as Typhoon Haiyan.
It was a monster of a storm, possibly the strongest to ever make landfall, and it came at the tail end of the typhoon season there.
While climate scientists are usually reluctant to link greenhouse gas emissions to a single extreme event like a cyclone, they mostly agree we will witness more such ferocious weather in coming years.
Krishna Kumar Kanikicharla, a senior author with the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, told Reuters that the overall number of tropical cyclones may decline this century but “wind speed and the precipitation is likely to increase.”
The link between global warming and cyclone activity is unclear but there is evidence that oceans are warming up, said Mark Paquette, a meteorologist with Accuweather.com in State College, Pa.
Warmer oceans provide vast energy for such storms, “likely resulting in more intense storms,” he said. “Just like a fire would be more intense if there was gasoline nearby, storms will be intense if (the ocean) water is warm.”
Several environmental factors came together to make Haiyan so deadly, said Paquette. “A warmer Pacific, warm and humid temperatures in the Philippines, and literally no land mass, like mountains, to act as a barrier or to even slow it down.”
It swept through the Pacific for days gathering momentum. When it made landfall on Friday, the wind speed was a staggering 314 km/h at its peak. It ravaged towns and villages in the central Philippines, killing an estimated 10,000 people and displacing more than 600,000 others.


The thing that deniers overlook is intensity. Typhoons and hurricanes happen, and are fueled by the temperature difference between the ocean and the atmosphere. Warmer oceans lead to more intense storms. People are killed, while the denier industry profits.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1413

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac ... You can't have it both ways! I read the report as THE LINK IS UNCLEAR! (The rest is assumption.)

1) Single events are weather, not climate. Are you now jumping on the band wagon by claiming otherwise?

2) How on earth can anybody know that it is the worst hurricane ever?

3) Surface ocean temperatures are STILL within the normal range.

4) The predicted cooling phase (according to Curry/Russians etc) has only just commenced, and the cooling effects will/or will not (if wrong) only become apparent some years still ahead.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4337

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some animal rights activists are wondering just how many birds green energy may unintentionally kill as more and more birds turn up dead at solar energy facilities throughout California.

A recent article by Vice author Lex Berko notes that dead birds are being found with “singed wings” around several California solar energy facilities.

It happens that many of California’s solar plants are, the article claims, in the path of “the four major north-to-south trajectories for migratory birds” called “the Pacific Flyway.”

Remembering the Golden eagles...

Also in memory of the disappearing American prairies, thanks to huge solar farms.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5560

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT--I'm not having it both ways. The typhoon is weather, no doubt about it. The typhoon is more severe because more heat has been stored in the ocean over the last fifteen years.

Bard's piece is a standard drudge type hit piece, tailored for the ignorant and haters. Asked and rebutted here if he bothered to pay attention.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2763

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
Some animal rights activists are wondering just how many birds green energy may unintentionally kill as more and more birds turn up dead at solar energy facilities throughout California.

A recent article by Vice author Lex Berko notes that dead birds are being found with “singed wings” around several California solar energy facilities.

It happens that many of California’s solar plants are, the article claims, in the path of “the four major north-to-south trajectories for migratory birds” called “the Pacific Flyway.”

Remembering the Golden eagles...

Also in memory of the disappearing American prairies, thanks to huge solar farms.

Mr. B.... Thanksgiving is just around the corner. I hope you and your family have a festive, joyous, healthy, and happy celebration of all you give thanks for.

And you'll probably have roast turkey -- let's hope it's not too singed.

While you're worrying yourself sick over a few dozen singed swallows, are you equally worried about the millions of turkeys that died so we can eat them?

And while you're worrying yourself sick over those prairies with solar farms, are you equally worried about drilling for oil in our nature preserves or in the Gulf of Mexico?

Or is your hand-wringing just more scare-tactic right wing hypocrisy?
.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3751
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bard...please supply the link to your Drudge Story, otherwise its plagiarism, which might be ok for Rand Paul, but not Steven Bard.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2763

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boggsman1 wrote:
Bard...please supply the link to your Drudge Story, otherwise its plagiarism, which might be ok for Rand Paul, but not Steven Bard.

The nerve of these people -- plagiarizing Mr. Bard's words without giving him credit.
.
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