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Is Sail worth fixing. Also, recommend new sail?
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2431

PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ezzy sails NEED the S bend at the bottom batten, and the rotation problem is solved with outhaul. You need to add TWO inches of positive outhaul for the sail to rotate. It's a soft sail, so if the battens tips are near the mast, it does not rotate unless the winds blow 25.
The sail needs to be pretty flat, but the bottom two battens do have draft.
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shreddbob



Joined: 31 Mar 1987
Posts: 280
Location: Massachusetts

PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW some photos of my 5.2 Wave Panther 2012, rigged on the recommended Ezzy 400 mast.

This sail is downhauled just about to "max", and outhauled appropriately. You can see quite a bit of shape in the sail. David Ezzy has seen these pictures and says they look right. He says he includes the strings on the clew to be sure people give enough outhaul, and also says that making the sail too flat (too much outhuaul) will make the sail twitchy/unstable. Rotation is easy. Saying that, I do usually have to pop the sail over with a gentle tug rather than relying on it to just go over by itself. The tug becomes unconscious...except when I am on another flatter sail like a Naish and then go back to the Ezzy and have to re-learn the tug.



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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2431

PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While my Ezzy 5.5 Wave is merely a 2007, I find your picture of your 5.2 to show MINIMUM downhaul, and barely any outhaul.
Maximum dowhaul wrinkles the clew at the THIRD batten to the oval reinforcement, so the top batten area is wrinkled well past the oval patch.
I find, if I rig like your pic, my 5.5 is limited to only maybe 26mph top end, while low wind planing is pretty good. Top heavy, back handed.
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shreddbob



Joined: 31 Mar 1987
Posts: 280
Location: Massachusetts

PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zirtaeb wrote:
While my Ezzy 5.5 Wave is merely a 2007, I find your picture of your 5.2 to show MINIMUM downhaul, and barely any outhaul.
Maximum dowhaul wrinkles the clew at the THIRD batten to the oval reinforcement, so the top batten area is wrinkled well past the oval patch.
I find, if I rig like your pic, my 5.5 is limited to only maybe 26mph top end, while low wind planing is pretty good. Top heavy, back handed.


In fact your 2007 does not rig the same as the newer Wave Panthers. I talked on the phone at length with David Ezzy about the rigging of my sails. I, like you Zirtaeb, have been accustomed to downhauling the crap out of my sails (2008 Naish Sessions in particular) to make them feel stable and slippery. This approach wasn't working for me with my 2012 Panthers and that's why I sought out David's advice. Also, a few months later I met him in person on Maui and we talked some more. Here are some of the key points he made.

1. The Wave Panther (2009+) is different from the Wave SE (2001 - 2008). He said he realized many people preferred using tons of downhaul to make the SE's feel stable and slippery when well powered up. But the Panthers (and Tigers) have a different seam shaping scheme and do not need nor want so much downhaul. Also the Panthers set a bit fuller with the recommended outhaul than the SE's.

2. The Panthers (and Tigers) will lose the correct tensioning in the sail if downhauled past the inner rigging marks. The SE's did well for maximum wind for some people if downhauled beyond the inner oval.

3. I showed him the below photo of leach looseness. I had been inclined to consider this setting "Almost Maximum". He said he considers this to be "Maximum". He suggests not going all the way to the inner marks at all with these sails. They are better tuned with outhaul tension. In fact his general rule of thumb for the Panthers/Tigers is to use the middle marks as the optimum downhaul for most situations, and if you find you are underpowered then back off the downhaul and outhaul.

My own experience with my Panther Ltd's and Tigers is that I never use the maximum (inner) marks. I've tried it and there is no gain in stability, rather the sail becomes lifeless and twitchy. (A similar thing happens if I try to outhaul too flat.) I will go about 1/2 way from mid to max downhaul marks if I'm well powered. I am tending to like a bit more downhaul than David's advice of the mid marks...probably because I use an adjustable outhaul system and can always get more power instantly if needed, and like how slippery the sail feels with the downhaul somewhat past the mid marks, but certainly not at all the way to max.

The photo shows leech looseness to about 2/3 from mid to max marks. And as David said, you'd never want more downhaul and I agree.

4. The final point David Ezzy made is the way his sails look on the beach is not very useful to predicting how they will feel on the water. (I was a bit confused by this at first. But thinking about it, perhaps he says this because his seam shaping design is not like other "rotational" designed sails. His sails don't have the battens wrapping around the mast until the sail is powered with wind. Rotational sails have the battens wrapping around the mast at rest, and they move back to aft of the mast under power.) Anyway, the important thing is how the sail feels on the water and not what we think it should look like on the beach, and that makes sense. Once I know what feels good I can then correlate how these settings are set on the beach. All the marks and strings on the sails get you very close the first time out, but it does take your own fine tuning in the end to make things suit you the best.



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blockidog



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 218
Location: ~~BLA BOYZ~~

PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am on '10 Ezzy Wave Panther II's since new. Prior to that I was on '08 Ezzy SE's.

I always rig to max downhaul and then adjust OH for fine tuning.

I am 165#'s and I prefer a lighter feeling sail with as little back-hand pressure as possible and feel I get this with max DH. I will try some more moderate DH settings as described above.

Back to the OP - Prior to '09, I had only used North Sails (22 years; Ezzy Maui Edition, Infiniti, Zeta, VooDoo, Rave, Duke, DR X, XXX) and I did like the feel - to me they seemed less drafty and quicker, more active. I always have used Ezzy Skinny masts with the SE/Panther and this does contribute to that springy/less direct feel. Problem with North was durability (except the Zeta and Voodoo).

PK and Evans can chime in on the North vs Ezzy I am sure.
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shreddbob



Joined: 31 Mar 1987
Posts: 280
Location: Massachusetts

PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm 165# too. I can't stand any back handedness. My Naishes have always been good to me, but not on Naish masts (too stiff!)--NoLimitz instead, but mixing Sumo and regular tops/bottoms for optimal tuning/feel. These were 2008's. I believe 2010 and newer Naish really do need the stiff Naish masts.

My trying out the Ezzys is for the extra power vs. the Naish Sessions. Needed something to power slow Goya Quad board better. The tuning and adjusting with the switch has been a bit of work, but now I'm pretty happy. Still love the Naish Sessions though.

As to the 6.5 question, would not want wave sail. Tried Naish Sprint freeride sail a few years ago--light quick feel, flattish profile...but harness hook went right through monofilm foot like butter. Switched to Ezzy Cheetah this year. The feel is not as light and quick. More locked in, rigid. Wasn't liking that feel until I fooled with mast choices. Ended up using 12 year old black color Ezzy/Powerex 430 skinny mast top with Ezzy contemporary 430 bottom and this took some of the rigidness out. Sail much more springy now. Supposedly the seam shaped Ezzy designs are not so mast sensitive, like rotationals can be. But if I don't like the feel I go into the shed and come out with stuff to try until I'm happy. I know the Cheetah will be pretty bullet proof, and it looks way cool Cool
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3090
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I said quite early on that the year Ezzy will made some difference, their was 1 year that had some odd character( 2009 maybe,, not sure and don't have any that old anymore)

as well some of the hash marks, had a 5.0, that were misplaced.


etoo much downhaul will ruin the sail as feel and power , looking at the new measure system you can see how little from min to max

FWIW I use a panther LTD from last year in 6.0 THEN:

then switch to Cheetah for 6.5 //7.5, like the extra batten, range on the Cheetah are brilliant

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npiankov



Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want a flatter sail with good power, here would be my suggestion: HSM Liquid. You can now get a 6.5 dirt cheap (for a new sail!): http://www.hotsailsmauishop.com/liquid-4.aspx

These sails have amazing power for their size. I once had a 7.0 Liquid and it felt as powerful (or even more!) as my Ezzy Infinity 7.5 (set up with a single cam). It doesn't have a huge amount of profile and apparently they work quite well on NP masts (according to HSM). The sail I had was also very pumpable - I could get going in very little wind. It's also pretty light, but built well (the luff is truly indestructible). The reason I sold it was because I wanted my wife to use it as her big sail and it wasn't comfortable. The sail had a fairly high cutout and a high clew, so for my 5'4" wife the boom was higher than she prefers. If you are taller than that, the Liquid could be a great choice. A friend of mine recently bought a 6.0 and likes it.
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windrockwater



Joined: 03 Aug 2010
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a pic of the sail rigged as best as I could. Notice the S bends in the battens. Notice the sail has been rigged to the white line. Notice that the lower batten is on TOP of the mast. Hence I need to 'pop' the sail when rotating. In this pic you can see the lowest batten bent in one direction while the next two battens are in S shape.

I will keep trying to rig this right. Mr. Ezzy emailed me back some tips and advice. My arms are getting tired from all the re-rigging. Ha.

That HSM price is very tempting! Thats nearly half price to a pricey competitor. Like alot of you, I learned how to sail about 20 years ago on the worst sail shapes imaginable. Sails were no better than a blue tarp and a broomstick. Then 10 years ago, cam sails drove me batty because they frequently required pumping to rotate. I cannot go back to those days! I want flat or flattish sails that just feel good. Even at the expense of some performance.



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npiankov



Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the Liquid is much flatter than that. Rather simple sail by all accounts. It mostly acquires its shape under wind pressure and, as I said, it is surprisingly powerful for its size. The 6.5 will easily cover for your 6.7 and may be as powerful as some of the 7.0s out there. Not sure if you need that and maybe you can tune it out anyway.

HSM often has good prices on sails. And when they have a sale, nobody else comes close (except maybe some eBay items).

Ezzys are great too and I had exclusively Ezzys for a few years. But I also wanted flatter sails at one point and now have gone away from them completely...
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