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Sheared Euro pin -- how remove from extension?
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outhaul



Joined: 27 Sep 2011
Posts: 178

PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
hilton08,

You might want to take a look at your rubber hourglass while sailing. The degree of deflection is amazing. After realizing what was actually going on, I made the change to tendon-type universals.

bob1,

So, I take it you were using Chinook's SS universal. Although I've never had a problem with any of my Chinook SS universals failing, if Chinook's subcontractor machined the base of the pin without a sufficient radius, it significantly weakens the part and leaves it open for structural failure through cracking and potential shearing.


Sorry if this is a silly question, but why is everyone so in love with tendon type universals?
What's wrong with the mechanical type? Chinook states that it "provides instant drive to race boards", yet in Bonaire, Jibe City considered them for beginners. It's all I use and never had a problem, just check them over at the beginning of the year
for tightness and go.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5698

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I've seen mechanical universals, I've never used one. However, it's my understanding that they make it quite easy to connect or disconnect the board and the sail while on the water or the beach, so that might be an asset for beginners less familiar with the equipment. Also, I've heard that mechanical universals are tougher on the board and mast track, since there is very little dampening or compliance to absorb shocks from rough chop and jumps.

Speaking for myself, I like the little bit of shock absorption that the tendon offers without the huge deflection inherent with rubber hourglass universals.
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Waveseeker



Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Chinook rubber europin UJ sheared as well. Air pockets formed inside the pin when the metal alloy was cast...so I'm told. Chinook told me at the time (August 2013) that they were drafting a memorandum to their dealers to recall the item.

Not sure if that ever happened or if it ever will. The fact that they "outsourced" production is no excuse. This is just another example of sub-standard gear that should NEVER have been put on the market in the first place. Lives are in the balance.

Re question of how to extract broken pin from extension: Is the extension made by Chinook? If so, throw it out : )

Pics and discussion here:

http://www.windsurfillinois.com/index.php?option=com_community&view=groups&task=viewdiscussion&groupid=7&topicid=107&Itemid=194



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Last edited by Waveseeker on Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:53 pm; edited 2 times in total
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5698

PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your website is protected against access by anyone without a recognized name and password. Things in Illinois must be real sketchy if there's a need to complicate things in such a manner. Why even post the link?

Also, why all the negativity about Chinook products? I've never had any of their products fail. With your pointed comments, you're insinuating that their products are junk. I don't think that's appropriate at all.
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Waveseeker



Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I copied the URL while logged into our webpage. The link above is now correct. Thanks for pointing it out, swchandler.

Why negative about Chinook? Like I said, lives are in the balance. The UJ is a critical piece of gear that can put a rider's life in peril depending on when it fails.

Metals have been cast for millennia. There is no excuse for a bad casting. And, windsurfers are not guinea pigs. I don't think we should make excuses for these guys just because we love the sport. The faulty casting should never have come on the market to begin with.

Not only did Chinook bring this "junk" to market but once discovered, they did nothing about it. I was not the first one to call it to their attention. And it looks like I wasn't the last. It should have be removed without the community prompting Chinook to do it. If you take your gear into inhospitable conditions, you want something you can rely on. Chinook is not it.

Finally, when you tell the public that you're going to announce a recall and don't do it, that's rather pathetic.

...to answer your question re why so negative about Chinook.

I'm going to ignore your comments about Illinois.
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wsurfn1426



Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the SS europin tendon UJ (EX) since it was introduced. I replace my tendon every year (along with my downhaul and outhaul lines).

I trust it. I have had really good customer service from Caleb and Chinook in the past. Very responsive/fair. I would buy from them again based on my experiences so far.

Waveseeker, I understand your opinion and right to share your experience. Thx.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5698

PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me ask you this, why did you suggest that Chinook's mast extensions are junk when your problem was with their SS hourglass universal? I have both Chinook's carbon and aluminum RDM mast extensions and I've never had any problems at all. I also have their SS tendon style two bolt and single bolt universals, and again no problems.

In subcontracting the manufacture of components, there is always a chance of defects. Usually the numbers are statistically fairly low, and sound manufacturing and quality control processes do a fairly good job screening out defects. However, internal defects that can't be physically measured are much tougher to discern, especially since destructive testing is not usually performed on commercial products made for windsurfing. Initial product testing is typically done by team riders to prove out the design and its fitness for purpose. Later, it's customer feedback and warranty returns that determine whether the product is working as it should. Of course, a more involved QA program could be implemented and maintained, but we would see the result in much higher pricing.

Lastly, one must judge the integrity of a company based on their customer service and warranty policies. From what I've gleaned over time based on comments from others, Chinook has done an admirable job in maintaining a high standard of customer satisfaction. Given the fact that I've never had a warranty problem or difficulties with any of the products that I've bought, I have to say that I'm quite satisfied.
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dogalone



Joined: 10 Apr 2000
Posts: 108

PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's a bad ethic not to do something more substantial about that particular problem with the bad castings
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Waveseeker



Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to be clear, I'm not aware of any issue with the "tendon" UJ (as opposed to the "rubber" UJ or the "mechanical" UJ).

The mechanical UJ suffers from a similar problem as the current rubber cast UJ, i.e., it's susceptible to shearing. The prior incarnation of the rubber UJ was also susceptible to shearing because the Europin would unscrew from the bolt below. I've had four Chinook UJs: (i) mechanical (sheared); (ii) rubber bolt-on Europin (sheared); (iii) rubber cast Europin (sheared); and (iv) tendon Europin (works fine). Pics attached.

I don't know this for a fact, but I'm guessing that Chinook switched the design from (ii) to (iii) because of the shearing problem. When the bolt-on Europin unscrews from its bolt, it shears. So...they tried casting? But, they botched it. No need to be an apologist about it. They / their subcontractor / their dog / I-don't-give-a-rat's-a**-who / screwed it up. And, they botched up the recall as well. Or, worse yet, they were dishonest about ever intending to issue a recall--leaving riders to get into trouble with defective products without warning. That's even more culpable and more reprehensible.

I don't get the argument about contracting out, swchandler. Who's name is on the product? You want the consumer to vet the subcontractor? I don't even know who that is. That's a rather far fetched notion contrary to the way business is done. EVERYONE in effect "contracts out" when they manufacture in China, no? Most of the factories there, whether affiliated by name or not, are run, in fact, as "contract manufacturers." But, let's not lose focus. You can subcontract to whomever you want but if you put your name on the product, it's YOUR product.

And, the way it stands, it's a "defective product." When you have a defective product on the market that endangers riders' lives the ethical thing to do is to get it off the market ASAP.

When my UJ sheared in August, I felt lucky that it happened on the inside. Sure, I had a half hour swim in breaking surf with rig in one hand and board in the other, but it wasn't life threatening. I noticed the air bubbles in the casting and my immediate thought was to warn others about this defect. I contacted Chinook and told them that I would be happy to post on our web page. They said, "patience." Now I find out that someone at Waddell had the same issue. WTF, right? Do we need something really tragic to happen before this junk is off the market?

As far as my comment about throwing the Chinook extension in the trash, that was part comedy, part reality. I didn't ride on Saturday, but my friends had a sesh at the southern end of the Big Lake and a Chinook RDM extension failed. Pic attached. Waves at that spot on Lake Michigan on a North day can be 6 to 10 feet. It was pretty rough but no excuse for an RDM extension to snap. My own experience with the Chinook extension is that it's sub-standard equipment. The button jams with sand without fail, necessitating about five minutes of flushing to get it working again and Chinook appears to have skimped on using stainless steel for the internal parts as those are rusting...not to mention the downhaul line that shreds itself after a few sessions.



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Waveseeker



Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chinook RDM extension. Button jammed with sand; innards rusting. In other words, this is the model intended for use in distilled water and grassy launches.


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