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Obama vs. the Tea Party--who can lead?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13844

PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
Well written laws and effective reform are not possible. So, Obama has had to resort to the politics of manipulation.

So legitimate opposition justifies subterfuge, even breaking the law?

What amoral planet do liberals come from?
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 4993

PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rr--I am brushing off the rubber rooms because, statistically, they are irrelevant. Tenure as a teacher means that your job is a property right and cannot be taken from you without due process. I have done that as a boss, and I know how it is done, and more important that it is a necessary, but unpleasant part of your job.

I haven't re-consulted the right wing memes about rubber rooms--they have to do with teachers who have been disciplined, but are awaiting their disciplinary hearings. They are no longer in the classroom, and are a minor part of the New York teaching numbers. I assume that most of them will eventually, and should be, fired.

As I have said here, I support stronger requirements for tenure, quicker due process provisions so that bad teachers can be fired, and greater teacher training. But since I actually know something about statistics, I don't get lit up emotionally by right wing anecdotal memes. Too bad that most people aren't better educated about the difference between trends and anecdotes. I can give you a few references if you would like?

Now to the question of the Tea Party, and the loathsome nature of the right wing's policies that deserves opposition. From yesterday's column by Debra J. Saunders, a very conservative columnist who I always read, but rarely agree with.

Quote:
In 2012, the federal government paid about $5 billion directly to farmers of wheat, corn, barley, oats, cotton, rice, soybeans, peanuts and other crops - except the recipients cannot all be farmers. According to the Environmental Working Group, 116 of those tillers of the earth reside in San Francisco. For their farming activities, they pocketed $446,302....

Rep. Stephen Fincher, R-Tenn., has become the poster child for the GOP farm bill. He supported food stamp cuts, I presume on principle. And his would be a highly respectable position except, the New York Times reports, Fincher collected nearly $3.5 million in farm subsidies from 1999 to 2012. That puts House Republicans in favor of welfare, but only for the rich.


This level of hypocrisy can also be seen in VP candidate Ryan, whose family wealth comes from government highway construction contracts. So Fincher, a Tea Party favorite, mines $300,000 a year from the Federal government while scapegoating the poor. Here's Forbe's take on this piece of right-wing work:

Quote:
Armed with an array of proverbs and quotes from the Holy Bible, Congressman Fincher is pressing his fight to dramatically curtail the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP)óbetter known to most Americans as food stampsórelied upon by 47 million Americans for some or all of their daily sustenance.

Why?

Because the Bible tells him so.


Tell me again how I should love my enemies while they do hateful things.
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 876

PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know what's more laughable, your relentless divisive ignorance OR your "educated" arrogance. I don't have a statistic to prove it but it is what I've observed.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 4993

PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RR--again with the compelling substantive arguments. I'm in awe.
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 876

PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess that makes two of us...
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joew



Joined: 18 Jul 1999
Posts: 152

PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tell me RR , do you have kids in school? Are you involved in their education? My point, it's easy to villify any group when it's an abstraction, when the reality of the teachers and classrooms are not omnipresent in your personal life. You get all worked up from some op ed piece or Faux news, or one of your drywall finishers and turn the T.U. into your object of contempt. Making generalizations about Ethnic or racial groups,is as wildly inaccurate as making blanket condemnation of union groups. Unions are comprised of individuals, the good, the bad, and everything in between. Your myopic talking points are a little threadbare and are not backed up by specificity or personal experience. Oh, I forgot, teachers are hypocritical, because they don't hire union contractors for a remodel. The remodeling sector of residential work is not a place where there are a lot of union GC's, a few subs ,plumbers, electricians like myself happen to be union, your arguments don't pass much real world scrutiny in my view. You spent five years as a union electrical apprentice and when your training was finished the union had outlived it's usefulness to you, Oh that's right , the lazy guy on the ladder offended you so thoroughly it turned you off on all unions for life.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 4993

PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's even better than that Joe, RR feels free to hate teachers, based on an anecdote of personal experience. Yet any criticism of his Tea Party allies, based on their announced policies, is spreading hate.

Hypocrisy is not limited to the non-religious.
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 876

PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joew,
I have no hate for teachers or the work they do. I happen to think teaching is an admirable occupation. You have that part incorrect, and yes I have been involved in my childrens education. I just don't need to pat myself on the back for that publicly like some do. Chest pounding and self righteousness I believe were your terms when I shared my work experience. I don't blame people for joining unions as I did. I saw plenty of hard working people there and I'd like to think I was one of them. My comments are regarding the organization of unions and their conduct and how they impose on the rights of others to obtain their own goals. The "rubber room" example was a perfect example of unions turning on their own and their corrupt behaviour. It just so happened to be teachers caught in the cross fire in this example. I also cited an example of my builder friend and how local 183 shut down his site so they could lay claim on jobs that they felt entitled to.
To quote myself,
"When teachers go on strike and then punish the children for it, they can go screw themselves as far as I'm, and most of the rational public are concerned. When a labourer's union blocks my friends subdivision site because they feel his jobs are there's for the taking,and then delay house closings, stop others from working, and people from driving on the street they impose on everyone's rights just to serve their own selfishness. "
Mac,
I never said I hate teachers. I said that in my experience that teachers and union members / civil servants were the people who most often asked me to do work for cash, an illegal act which defrauds the taxation system which pays their wages, which I want no part of. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but unlike you I don't don't identify my beliefs around political lines, so that's not my Tea Party allies. I don't follow the Tea Party politics one bit to know if they spread hate or not. I'm Canadain, remember? I have however, read enough here to know that you spread a message of political hatred. I could spew example of screw ups and stupidity of both parties here lately. One you may not like is the $600 million dollars our liberal provincial government spent on a gas plant that they later cancelled, or I'm sure you've heard of our crazy conservative mayor. Sorry I don't see things in your hateful manner where it easy to blame everything on the party that you don't agree with.


Last edited by reinerehlers on Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:04 am; edited 2 times in total
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 876

PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joew,
The remodelling sector is less unionised, but it does not rule it out as an option. Therefore my comments have scrutiny when someone is driving home the union message yet they do not wish practice as they preach to hire union. It's like saying, "it's good for me, but........it would be too expensive."

I spent 2 years in the union as a framing carpenter, 5 years as an apprentice electrician, almost 3 years as a journeyman electrician / foreman. I stuck around until I got pushed out the door by the recession, and then went back for a short bit (9 months) when business was slow. I didn't jump ship once my training was done. I stayed as long as I could for security and out of fear.


Last edited by reinerehlers on Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3231

PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remind me RR. Liberal and conservative means something different in Canada right?
In Belize conservatives are anti gun, anti big business and fast growth.
They like the status quo and don't want it to change or foster competition.
The Liberal party wants to arm private citizens as a personal liberty issue and wants tourist and other development for jobs for the less skilled.
They both are patriotic so unlike our Congress, they compromise and get legislation passed for the good of he country, even when they don't want to.
Not like the States.
I am with the Conservative party
.We have few guns here and few gun murders or accidents, or gun suicides.
I like that. The liberals are gaining and more and more gun permits are issued.
Along with that we have a huge percent increase in gun deaths, of course.
That is why educated people in Belize do think that a gun in the hand of every rum soaked a)$hole magically makes the world safe.
The conservatives here are mostly rich people who don't think Belize is a better place by developing it to look like Los Angeles.


Last edited by keycocker on Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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