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jibing: "speed is your friend". well, sort of.
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1088
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

watermonkey wrote:
My goal is a planing exit...neglected to say that up front.

My assertion is that it makes more sense to get through a given step then add speed, rather than the other way around. Obviously, there's some minimal speed for a jibe to work at all (I'm talking powered, not light-wind), but I think that getting to max speed as a prerequisite for everything else is overkill and can be pretty counterproductive. Instead, you work your way up to it: setup, then setup with more speed; followed by entry, then entry with more speed; then... This incremental approach (skill, then speed) is standard stuff for pretty much anything else - I don't see why it wouldn't apply to this sport.


Interesting. You can't "gain speed" in a jibe (unless of course you are on a swell/wave). Once you start your jibe, you become "unpowered" and are "coasting". So from that point on it is a continuing lost of speed until you sheet in and sail away from your jibe. How much speed you loose during the jibe depends on you, your gear, and your technique. So the more speed you have coming in, the more you will have coming out assuming all other things being equal.

Most people don't have anywhere near enough speed coming into a jibe to even remotely plane out of one. Hence why many of us tell you to go as fast as possible. And then go faster Cool How SMOOTH you are during the rest of the process will determine how much speed you carry out of the jibe.

And by "definition" a planing jibe is one that at the end you just flip the sail and hook right in and nothing more is required other than putting your feet back in the straps. I find coming out of the jibe barely on a plane isn't too bad either. A quick pump of the sail and off you go. Some might call this a planing jibe, some might not. Technically I guess this is also a planing jibe since you are planing when you come out, just not enough to stay on the plane without pumping.

But the MORE energy you save during the jibe process (like not coming to a stop or falling and having to waterstart) the more energy you should have to sail, and the longer the sessions you will have. I think that is the goal for most of us Smile
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westender



Joined: 02 Aug 2007
Posts: 582
Location: Portland / Gorge

PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some people are never going to plane out of a gybe because they are barely planing before they start to turn. I know my days of slalom water skiing have helped my sailing.

Nothing wrong with keeping your hair dry in the turns. Lots of sailors would love to exit a gybe slogging with a dry sail.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13266

PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnl wrote:
watermonkey wrote:
it makes more sense to get through a given step then add speed


Interesting. You can't "gain speed" in a jibe (unless of course you are on a swell/wave).

I think watermonkey means learn each step at a slow speed (i.e., stick in a toe), then try it at a faster speed (step in up to his knees) next time. Thus my deep end of the pool analogy.
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1088
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, I must have missed that. Then I agree, if you want to learn planing jibes, then you had better be going pretty fast.

BUT if you are still learning the entire jibe procedure, then I recommend the non planing pivot jibe. You can do this when there isn't even enough wind to plane. This will help your sail flip and your foot work (although slightly different). This way switching your feet and flipping the sail will become more natural. One less thing to work on while actually planing.

Which is why I also strongly recommend working on long boards with small sails in non planing winds. This gets the sail flip and sail handling ingrained into your memory so that it becomes natural even when planing. But nobody seems to want to do this. They would rather stand on the shore cussing the lack of wind or take up kiteboarding then actually improve their sail handling skills...
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mgrolnick



Joined: 15 May 2010
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
Trying to stay dry is not conducive to learning to plane through jibes;
Mike \m/


Trying to stay dry is not conducive to learning anything! Surprised
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1346

PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gybing is a progression. Planing gybes are the ultimate goal/conclusion. Getting there takes thousands of attempts on various size boards with various size sails and in a variety of wind and water conditions.

Every attempt helps your progression, regardless of conditions, speed, equip., etc.

So, it you are on a smallish board, and hit a hole in the wind and must gybe while slogging, developing balance, flipping the sail while turning the board AND STAYING DRY is worth the effort. It doesn't necessarily help one learn a carving gybe, but it does make you a better sailor and allows for additional attempts in a given time frame. Tell a wave sailor that staying dry doesn't matter, especially those on the gulf or east coast where the wave period is very short. Staying dry leaves you with a feeling of achievement and success, especially if you are in challenging conditions, regardless of skill level.

The only thing that doesn't add to improvement is staying on a beam reach feeling 100% comfortable regardless of wind and speed. Not much different than watching from the beach.

What I tell novices and low intermediates - NO beam reaching until they have attempted at least 10 gybes and 10 tacks with less than 10 seconds between each attempt. Staying dry is the goal and they are improving significantly faster than the beam "reachers".
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1137

PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

watermonkey wrote:
My assertion is that it makes more sense to get through a given step then add speed, rather than the other way around. Obviously, there's some minimal speed for a jibe to work at all (I'm talking powered, not light-wind), but I think that getting to max speed as a prerequisite for everything else is overkill and can be pretty counterproductive. Instead, you work your way up to it: setup, then setup with more speed; followed by entry, then entry with more speed; then... This incremental approach (skill, then speed) is standard stuff for pretty much anything else - I don't see why it wouldn't apply to this sport.


It doesn't for the planing jibe. There are two main reasons IMHO:

1. The sail flip and feet switch is substantially different when the board is running at or near wind speed. Practicing what will keep you dry when you're below windspeed is not going to get you where you need to be. It's related but not the same.

2. Every element of the jibe that takes place before a planing sail flip and feet change must be geared towards maintaining speed. That's not simply "begin by going like a bat out of hell". Crazy fast is not what's needed. Not losing a drop of speed unnecessarily is what's needed. That's done by:
-unhooking without moving the sail,
-lowering yourself and hanging from the boom without letting the clew sheet out even an inch,
-bending at your ankles, then knees (bringing your hips forward and in) while extending the front arm and sheeting in with the back (again, never sheeting out for a moment,)
Initiating the sail flip early, so that the flipped sail is caught while you're on a very broad reach, still planing.

None of the above is necessary to carve into a jibe, change the feet and sail, and exit nonplaning. (the above is obviously only a partial list of the steps needed for a planing jibe...I'm just singling out those that you don't need to do to ALMOST plane out of a jibe.)

I spent years on what Peter Hart calls "the flarve" (carve jibe in, flare jibe out. The Brits call the pivot jibe a "flare jibe"). Then Dasher and Andy Brandt/ABK fixed me up.

Note that there are dozens of freestyle planing jibes, each with its own sailwork and footwork demands. The only thing they share in common is the need to carry enough speed (and not lose it) to have a planing exit. Step jibe, duck jibe, donkey jibe, backwinded jibe, pirouette jibe etc all require smooth control at speed. It's not uncommon when working on trick jibes to muck up the sail work completely, and still have a planing exit (I once dropped the sail, had a lucky bounce, and planed out).

johnl wrote:
How SMOOTH you are during the rest of the process will determine how much speed you carry out of the jibe.


Damn right. It's all about speed control through smooth technique. You don't have to flip the sail (clew first exit). You don't have to switch your feet (switchstance exit). You can be sure guys exit clew first switchstance, while planing.

Learning to plane through is not the last thing you add to the equation. As soon as you have a rudimentary understanding of the sail flip, planing should be your prime emphasis.

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westender



Joined: 02 Aug 2007
Posts: 582
Location: Portland / Gorge

PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wherever you are that you can plane out of all your jibes,, I want to sail there. You got some good wind. Cool
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jingebritsen



Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 2289

PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lotsa people sail like they are trying to minimize their number of turns. seems to me the only way to get better is to try more of 'em. on a typical breezy westerly, we often get ribbons of wind. rather than ride from one end of a body of water to the other, i will try to stay in the ribbon with the strongest wind. makes for more jibes, and more planing.

i also seek out jibe-atoriums. a section of water with lotsa wind, but no chop. allows one to work on the turns without the interaction of chop. bring in the chop later, after one has had the opp to concentrate on a planing jibe with out it.

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