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Gybe tip: let the sail pull you into the turn
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14335

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

watermonkey wrote:
how does one go from pulling down on the booms to pushing with the front hand and maintain that downforce? Or for that matter, stay bent at the knees while going "up and over"?

Whether we a) use the sail to pull us into position or b) oversheet to shut off the power then use body motion and weighting to get into position, the objective position remains pretty much the same. It's just two means to the same end.

"Going over" can be achieved by any combination of getting our center of gravity higher, our rig lower, and/or both. The usual combination in a catapult is getting our rig more upright (thus higher) but getting our cg even higher: not good unless in a style and distance catapult competition (I've always wondered why that idea never caught on; the possibilities are spectacular.) In a jibe, however, "going over" implies getting our cg lower but getting our rig even lower yet. Certainly a complete laydown achieves that, but that's not a prerequisite to "going over".

And downforce on the boom is not mandatory; it's just one way to keep the nose loaded enough to prevent porpoising.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3468

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pushing out with your front hand will not prevent you from weighting your harness, though right about that time is when you unhook for the jibe.
I do the unhook as part of the front hand push The sail is rotating, not moving away from you. The rear clew will be against your body.
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Sailboarder



Joined: 10 Apr 2011
Posts: 452

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
not good unless in a style and distance catapult competition (I've always wondered why that idea never caught on; the possibilities are spectacular.)


I clearly see you point. I recently performed a nice catapult that I ended with a roulade on the sail itself. The sail was fine afterward, but my neck slightly less...

There is a conspiracy in the industry to insure there will never be competitions in this. People would figure out they can properly pad the nose of the board and the whole repair business would collapse. Laughing p

More on topic, I still don't plane on my gybes, so keep the discussions flowing...
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dhmark



Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 216

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="whitevan01 "]dhmark,
there is no such thing as centrifugal force (it is known as in inertial force which is not a real force and is only felt when you are in an accelerating frame of reference, or as an apparent force) which would be an outward force.

I am a scientist too, but not so dogmatic. In my perspective (frame of reference), centrifugal force is as real as apparent wind. Smile
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1221

PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

watermonkey wrote:
you're hanging hard in the harness, unhook, then hang down/out again to keep control...how does one go from pulling down on the booms to pushing with the front hand and maintain that downforce? Or for that matter, stay bent at the knees while going "up and over"?


Nicely described/asked. I'm going to break up the downward force/push forward and the bent at the knees bits, though they happen simultaneously.

Downward pressure on the boom/push: Don't think of "pushing" the boom to the new position (forward and into the turn). Think of it as repositioning the boom head while you continue to apply downward pressure. Extending your arm forward and in while you push down. Or think of pushing "down and forward". Smooth downward pressure on the boom is a must if you're going to plane through a jibe, particularly in winds under 25mph. Dasher will tell you that even during the sail flip the front hand can exert some downward push if you need it to maintain board trim.

Stay bent at the knees: In order to get your weight forward and in to the turn with hips in and chin up (ie not piking) the bend also takes place at your ankles. By keeping your torso upright as much as possible you bend at the knees/ankles while bringing your weight forward. I wouldn't think "up and over" so much, as this may put "leaning over" or "bending over" in your mind.

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vikingsail



Joined: 12 May 1998
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From ABK lectures:
6. Let sail pull you forward , by bending from ankle, knees and hips. (do not pull self up) Keep front arm straight throughout. MFP. Hips forward. Knees bent.control jib carve with windward foot (This will force you to be on ball of foot with knee bent.) keep Head up and look where you're going around sail. Oversheet sail kayak paddle style (move hand toward hip),
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14335

PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsail wrote:
From ABK lectures: ... control jib carve with windward foot (This will force you to be on ball of foot with knee bent.)

I've read that many times, and never understood it from either a practical or a physics standpoint. I just don't see how plantarflexing (pointing) that ankle does anything but stretch the footstrap fabric (i.e., the upwards force on the strap equals and thus cancels the downforce on the deck beneath the strap); it doesn't lift the rail. For decades now, I've never seen a technically sound argument that the windward rail is being lifted rather than the lee rail is being depressed by weight transfer to the lee side of the board. I still think the purpose of pointing that windward ankle is as described in the quote above: "to [get] that knee bent".

It's all a trick to get us to Bend Zee Knees, IMO, while the carve is achieved primarily by a combination of weight transfer to the inside, rocker, and/or a forward shift in COE relative to CLR.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3468

PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When bending those knees do not squat down. Bend hem toward the mast.
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philodog



Joined: 28 Apr 2000
Posts: 83

PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tip learned from ABK 15 years ago I still use today as a reminder: Do one handed jibe entries letting go with the front hand. Back hand goes just a little farther back than the normal sailing position, not as far as a normal jibe. Just plan on wiping out the first few. Most likely when you let go of the front arm you will fall backward showing that you are not leaning into the turn enough. When you get the lean right the carve will be smooth and the rig will feel weightless. Nirvana! Don`t worry about the rest of the jibe yet, just keep carving one handed until you get go straight upwind. Also a great way to start learning 360s.
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ascott72



Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Posts: 117

PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I knew someone that knew more about physics than I would comment on the centifugal vs. centripetal distinction Smile

I would describe it is an outward force. It seems to me it's really your forward momentum before you started the turn, wanting to keep going in the original direction even after you have started turning.

Whatever the official term for it is, it is cool. Instead of falling forward in to the center of the turn, this force holds you up and against your board. So give it a shot. Let that sail pull you over.
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