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1st and 2nd Amendments under attack
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 990

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
I'm sick of this knee-jerk and dishonest reaction of 'hostility towards women.'

Most sane mature and thoughtful adults shudder at the stupidity and arrogance they often displayed as 'know it all' youths. The heartfelt age old cry is often - if only we could go back knowing what we now know about life! This is not a man reaction only. Often it is women who regret their immature actions most strongly.

My objection to legaslising abortion is that it has had two undesirable effects. 1) It has given the message to callow and naturally lustful young men that there need be no consequences to sex without moral commitment, so they can pressurise young women into playing along, and abortion is ready to hand. (It must be alright since society has approved by legalising it, and anyway, we young men won't suffer any emotional consequences, will we?) 2)It is the young women who fall for it, who will ultimately suffer any later in life trauma.

And that is seen as empowering women? Madness!!!

Pueno once detailed that his daughter had had learnmt a valuable lesson from her driving experiences. i.e. if she kept having accidents through carelessness, her insurance premium would go on rising and penalise her. She therefore had to face the ultimate consequence of her actions.

Now go and explain that concept to an immature young women who thinks society approves of her having an abortion, after she may have become emotionally disturbed as she gets older, and acquirs a little more understanding of life!


Exactly!
Amen
I alway think, "what next"? Do we just start shooting them after they are born. Is that the next twisted act we will coldone to justify our sick immorality?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14239

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
I know physicians that go months without payment for services under these plans.

Government officials have admitted that their payout policy is to delay as long as possible. I've gotten in the Air Force's face (it has one, if ya dig deeply enough) more than once about payout delays I considered completely inexcusable, and it seemed to help. I have no doubt that all gov't payout policies reflect that same policy.

Then there's the amount of the payment. It usually runs something like 15-20 cents on the dollar. Not that docs need to get paid $200/hour or my CPAP face mask is really worth a grand, but $20 and $80 is ridiculous, IMO.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5261

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I certainly appreciate an opinion, GT, delivered without withering scorn. But I disagree that this is not about controlling women--the litany of testimony in Texas, and in particular this clip, make it clear that the right has chosen to attack women with unwanted pregnancies as sluts: http://www.salon.com/2013/07/10/woman_is_forcibly_removed_from_texas_house_after_blasting_lawmakers_on_abortion_ban/

Second, abortion is a part of a more holistic set of issues associated with sexuality. I figured out 40 years ago that the Catholic church just doesn't get it on sexuality. Because I am personally opposed to abortion, I was always careful about sex. But you are wrong that abortion sends a message to men--the dilemma is always the woman's.

Finally, if I was sought out as spiritual adviser to a woman who had had eight abortions, rather than practice birth control, I might be in a position to give her advice--but maybe not even then to judge her. The question that I would ask, coming from my concern for the society's role in raising and educating children, is this. Why does anyone think that forcing a woman to bear an unwanted child will mean that child has a happy life? Who in their right mind thinks that a patriarchal group of Texas legislators, taking choice from that woman, will make her embrace parenthood? What has Texas done, or will they do, in their fervor for the sanctity of that fetus' life to assure that the unwanted child will actually have a life?
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1354

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac.

You are stating the argument that most progressives use. i.e.;

Unwanted pregnancies will always occur, so abortion should be freely available to all (A green light for mass irresponsible behaviour, as Steel was highlighting is increasingly happening. ) (As if that wouldn't obviously be the case!)

Followed by, underaged girls are always going to be having sex so dish out contraceptive pills to them, without their parents kinowledge. (What more encouragement could they be given?)

We must agree to differ. Liberals wish to ameliorate the consequences of peoples lack of self control and selfish behaviour, thus dragging in many more (who may have modified their behaviour if there had remained consequences to them personally) into the spiral of victim dependency. Others of us wish to make the consequences of life style choice (and it IS CHOICE) the responsisbilty of the individual.

Yes, it's an age old problem, and NO.I don't know what to do about unwanted babies who are 'tossed out' by 'uncaring self indulgent sluts' as some clearly see them. The vast majority of people, you (I hope) and I included are still the wanted result of loving and caring parents. THAT, is the bedrock of civilised society, but it's often only a thin veneer. WE destroy that at our peril!
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2673

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a world we now live in. We have a poster hyperventilating at the news that trace (i.e. insignificant) amounts of a DDT derivative are present in a frog....to bolster a seemingly never ending campaign to attack the credibility of DDT usage in malaria programs.......programs that have saved millions of lives. Yet this champion of the downtrodden croaker is unmoved by the chemicals that are pumped into the heart of a fully formed child to induce a heart attack, or the vacuum pump that sucks out "fetal tissue" (i.e. fully formed arms, legs, ears, eyes, head). He describe anyone who questions the wisdom or morality of such procedures as "knuckle draggers" and gleefully proclaims the political advantage that will result...
mac wrote:
Women will get even. Knuckle draggers won't know what hit them.

I suggest that anyone who hasn't seen ultrasound images of a 6 month old unborn baby take a look.........you will see a small child not "fetal tissue". I also suggest you look up the methods used to destroy that unborn child and ask yourself whether it is the action of a "knuckle dragger" to suggest that those methods are unacceptable simply to eliminate a perceived inconvenience.

mac wrote:
Show me a conservative with a real program to deal with unwanted and poor children and give them a better life, and I'll listen to their sarcastic nonsense about abortion. But I won't hold my breath.

I can show you dozens of programs that look after the health and well being of hundreds of thousands of these children. I am directly involved in one such organization.

Sadly, it is political suicide these days to articulate any opposition to abortion........the media and people like our Berkeley poster will see to that. Standing on principle is no longer fashionable and will be ridiculed. That's why those who have the courage to do so, despite the likely consequences, should be applauded. If they are knuckle draggers count me in.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1952

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ACA will provide more opportunity for women to afford to carry a pregnancy to term. An abortion is less than 10% of the cost of a full term pregnancy. And, contraceptive coverage is part of the law. I would think anyone who is prolife would rally behind this legislation since both may reduce the number of abortions.

BTW, GT, in this country the rate of abortions has been dropping. Are we becoming more moral? Or, do the sluts (both male and female) do a better job of preventing pregnancies?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14239

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
BTW, GT, in this country the rate of abortions has been dropping. Are we becoming more moral? Or, do the sluts (both male and female) do a better job of preventing pregnancies?

Yet 72.3% of black children are born out of wedlock.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5261

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT--I am usually not surprised at people putting words in my mouth--there are those here who brag about not listening, or looking at references. But you are usually capable of more insight.

First, I held my prematurely born twin grandchildren, every day for a month, in the ICU. They were born at something more than 7 months, so I know a little about viability. And my daughter is adopted, in an independent adoption. I have lived my values--within the capacity that it is my authority to decide.

Second, I think that abortion is a bad choice, and we should do things that are effective that will reduce it. I have no problem with restrictions on funding abortion with government funds--but to be consistent I might like the same option on wars, covert assassination, and drone strikes. But I think that forcing someone to have an unwanted child is, under our current legal structure, an even worse option. Remember that on abortion, the Supreme Court (by a 7-2 margin) has established both a right to abortion, rooted in the concept of privacy, and a viability test of 24 to 28 weeks. Here from the Pew Center:

Quote:
The second tier of Blackmun's framework encompassed the period from the end of the first trimester to the point of fetal viability - the point at which a fetus can survive outside the womb, either through natural or artificial means, which typically takes place between about 24 and 28 weeks into a pregnancy. At this point, Blackmun determined, the state has an interest in protecting maternal health and can regulate abortion only to protect the health of the mother.


Notwithstanding that right, which is established law, I think that it is a good idea to do whatever is reasonable to further reduce abortion--which has been falling anyway. But that involves engaging the end users, in terms consistent with their values, rather than trying to dictate to them. The tactics of the right here are my objection. They have tried to make access to birth control more difficult, raising religious objections to providing birth control when they are in the public arena as employers or health care providers. They have characterized women in misogynistic terms. It's kind of like a windsurfer yelling at a kiteboarder who passed them--not the best way to get a favorable reaction. They have cut funding for sex education and prevention of disease--particularly in Texas--as well as funds for childcare and education for the mothers who keep their children and the babies that are born. And most egregiously, they have mandated vaginal probes in several states. Much of this comes from the reborn John Birch Society, manifest in the American Legislative Exchange Council--ALEC--which was the source for the Texas law and the claims of fetal pain.

None of this comports with mrgybe's claims, nor is it, I believe, a typical liberal view that can be simply dismissed. Some on the right are eager to surface a case that they hope the current, activist Supreme Court, will use to overturn Roe v. Wade. Others pander to the far right's influence in Republican primaries. Still others, perhaps Governor Perry, are willing to pay off their political supporters by giving them plenty of legal work defending extreme legislation that is likely to be overturned.

The first and best choice is birth control for those who choose to be sexually active--and responsible. The second choice, if abortion is seen as needed by a pregnant woman, would be to have access to the morning after pill, or an early abortion. The right have fought all three, and the practical effect of the Texas law would be to so delay and increase the cost of abortion that it becomes unavailable, even within 20 or 18 weeks.

Don't put words in my mouth--my fingers work fine.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1354

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was not trying to sound offensive, and my reference to 'sluts' was the extreme right views highlighted. Having been a teacher who has had to deal with childrens emotional pproblems ( from dysfunctional backgrounds) I'm well aware of the complexity of such issues.

There are cultural differences between our countries, but the Abortion Bill as originally introduced over here was NOT intended as an alternative to contraception, or a free for all on demand. We were assured of that, and told that stringent controls would be in place to make sure it would stay that way. (It would only be available to those who had compelling need.) As with all assurances, it was worthless. Human nature saw to that!

I have no objection to abortion as first envisaged in that bill, for those who have been abused, sexually assaulted, or so emotionally damaged by their upbringing that mistake sex for love, provided that they then receive help and support to try and overcome problems in the future. (And we could argue all day about what that help should be.)

(Will continue - computer problem.)
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1354

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Continued.)

I could add many vulnerable teenage girls to the list of those needing help and guidance from responsible adults, as a result of the disastrous breakdown in marriage, and complete absence of a caring father in their lives. (Young girls NEED a father, just as badly as boys do.)

You (Mac) are capable of leading an exemplorary life, and deserve credit, but what angers me about many of the intellectual left wingers I've had to work with is the notion that the less able simply cannot be expected to have the same high standards, and we should not be judgemental of their chosen lifestyles. This is arrogant bullshit, and condescention of the worst kind.

It is the human condition that we need to be loved, or at the very least valued and needed. If anybody imagines that the way society has fragmented and broken down, (with its non judgemental attitude to all the old notions of morality) has contributed to our real human needs, they must clearly be blind!
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