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garyagingrich



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, I must be getting old. Someone called me an arch-lawn mower. Do we know each other? It's true that all I do is go back and forth. That's me, just cruise along in a straight line, never turning, never watching anything. Sometimes I drop a hand off my boom, but then I feel guilty for doing something out of the ordinary and quickly put it back. Man, I wish I could rip apart those massive WAVES like you swell-shredding superstars.

Johnl pretty much made it clear. Starboard has ROW. You can attempt to reify it as otherwise, but you just look selfish.

Here's the irony, you freaking guys keep saying you just want people to share the water. But that's 100% self-serving BS on a giant steaming platter. What you want is for others to yield and understand a newly defined set of rules that advantage you over them. Were you to have your way, you'd be kings of the water. Everyone that grew up and designed their sailing on the agreed upon rules of the water would get pushed back to the fringe.

And, yes, a wave is a wave is a wave. But to ignore the contextual meaning of what a wave is to basically stop using the English language. Context is incredibly important. You (by you, I mean anyone continuing the narrative of the preeminence of the swell riders) understand it but chose to ignore it for the sake of your argument. So because you're obstinate, I'll call if surf. Rules centered around surfing generally employ the language as I used it. A swell is an outer water, non-breaking lump of water. A wave is something that breaks after cresting (the small break done by swell does not count because it doesn't release its energy). Use of scientific terminology substitutes the meaning of wave within the rules you're talking about. It's a sneaky little double-speak trick that's not going over here. Not one surfer ever thought to include what your riding the Gorge in their rules. The most they ever cared in that sense was for forecasting. Surfing rules do not apply here. But any reference to them should be in their language (a swell here =/= a wave in the ocean). The danger of the breaking wave made those rules important. That does not apply here.

As for when to yield to a guy who has the ROW, as isobars sarcastically asked about; the second you know where they're trying to go. We all go on starboard at some point. That's your turn. So if you see a guy getting ready to ride a swell, give it up. If you see him gathering speed to jump, give it up. If he's in the parking lot, you jackass, give it up. How far away he is matters not at all. It's the fact that you can take the opportunity to not mess someone up. This is what sharing and getting along is all about. Get close. That's cool. But just make sure you don't ruin whatever he's trying to do.

Look guys, if we want to adopt something from surfers, it's not going to be their set of rules. They don't make sense here. They're not legal. They're not the custom and tradition of the Gorge. You'd be changing the rules simply to satisfy yourselves. If we do adopt something from surfing, it's going to be the attitude. If you whiny, selfish guys don't stop trying to look out only for yourselves, people will start 'talking' to you about it. That sort of social correction might become necessary in the Gorge. So be careful what you ask for. Asking for the rules to be more like surfing may just kick you in the ass.

- Mitch

PS Isobars, get a job man. And a haircut.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14310

PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garyagingrich wrote:
As for when to yield to a guy who has the ROW, as isobars sarcastically asked about; the second you know where they're trying to go. We all go on starboard at some point. That's your turn. So if you see a guy getting ready to ride a swell, give it up. If you see him gathering speed to jump, give it up. If he's in the parking lot, you jackass, give it up. How far away he is matters not at all. It's the fact that you can take the opportunity to not mess someone up. This is what sharing and getting along is all about. Get close. That's cool. But just make sure you don't ruin whatever he's trying to do.

Look guys, if we want to adopt something from surfers, it's not going to be their set of rules. They don't make sense here. They're not legal. They're not the custom and tradition of the Gorge. You'd be changing the rules simply to satisfy yourselves. If we do adopt something from surfing, it's going to be the attitude.

PS Isobars, get a job man. And a haircut.

WTH would I want a job for? Been there, done that.
My haircut still looks like it did in the military; that it's thinner is beyond my control.

I apologize if I implied any sarcasm; none intended. Many people DO state that being on starboard obligates them to straight lines. Some people actually believe they own a bump the minute they spot it, or aim at it, or "gather speed at it"*, or even dream about it the night before**. Some actually think that being on starboard gives them sole ownership of every piece or water in their path, regardless of distance. And some think that two seconds on starboard establishes all those rights and none of the obligations. None of that make any sense, and much of it was never intended in IYRA rules or maritime law or at Jaws.

* I'll assume that was sarcasm, even an outright joke, even without the parking lot punchline. If you can see and track the instantaneous speed and intent of dozens of swarming hornets withing striking distance, you're from a different galaxy than the rest of us, and are definitely "changing the rules to suit yourself". If you really believe that setting your crosshairs on a bump 100 yards away gives you priority over the guy at or 20 yards from its crest, you will be one frustrated Jose in any real world. My regard for a good friend began its decline the day he was angry at me for the whole day after I caught "his" bump after he saw at it from several rows away, as though I could read his mind AND that planted his flag on it. I thought he was joking when he finally admitted hours later why he was angry.

** That was sarcasm. Smile

"Getting close" is cool only if the other guy wants and invites it. Otherwise, it's just the price one pays for sailing in crowds, it's risky, and it shouldn't occur with strangers as an objective. And "just make sure you don't ruin whatever he's trying to do" is all this thread asks. In that light, many surfers' rules do make sense here, legal or not. That some of them "are not the custom and tradition of the Gorge" is lamentable, but the LAST aspect of surfers' rules rational people want here is their attitude.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14310

PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnl wrote:
you can't really complain that you don't have the swell to yourself when the BAF'ers come by

And I haven't. It's when they deliberately get directly in the way of, even threaten the safety of, people who can't just move over to flatter areas that I feel they are being inconsiderate, sometimes even hazardous.
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1182
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
johnl wrote:
you can't really complain that you don't have the swell to yourself when the BAF'ers come by

And I haven't. It's when they deliberately get directly in the way of, even threaten the safety of, people who can't just move over to flatter areas that I feel they are being inconsiderate, sometimes even hazardous.


BUT the question is how do you know they "deliberately get directly in the way"? This assumes a lot of stuff (we all know about assumptions right?). That they actually see you (just because they are looking towards you doesn't mean they see you), that they have full control, that they even have a thought of what they should do.

Now on the other hand if you talk to them later and they say "yeah I saw you, so get out of my way!" then deal with them appropriately Evil or Very Mad
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westender



Joined: 02 Aug 2007
Posts: 633
Location: Portland / Gorge

PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As someone said, unintentionally dangerous. If I have some wind, I'll stay out of your way.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5341

PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is anyone shocked that the man with over 11000 postings has a self-centered view of his rights on the water that has nothing to do with either law or courtesy?
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coyotewindsurf



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 1272
Location: SF Bay

PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems like some things never change.

Shocked

_________________
mo
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biffmalibu



Joined: 30 May 2008
Posts: 209

PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:27 pm    Post subject: Respect your elders. Reply with quote

Ad hominem attacks and veiled threats are ugly and weak (the lowest form of arguement). Anybody posting like that ought to reconsider and withdraw, because they are bad for business and personal reputation.

I apologize for referring to Mitch as an "arch-BAFer". I should have used something like "fancy BAFer" as it is more descriptive (going mach 5 on a beam reach while scanning for the perfect ramp to fly on, ending the beam reach with some freestyle trick, heading back on another beam reach). No value judgement implied. Just a different style than what old swell surfers do, which is beat upwind close-hauled, paying dues in search of the fattest swell on which to get the longest surf ride possible, finishing that ride with a turn/schlog/wipe-out, beating back upwind and resting for the next fat swell ride. I think all swell surfers are keenly aware of watching out downwind. All we are asking for is awareness and consideration. And to not be deliberately attacked by BAFers.

I think all Westender wanted was to draw attention to an assault and ask for consideration when enjoying a fat swell ride. I can second that and make pretty good arguements in support. A little civil communication and courtesy goes far, and I think it's still OK to disagree because at least there has been civil communication that hopefully brings awareness.

I think ya'll whipper-snappers ought to think twice about disrespecting your elders, especially as we seem to be in the vast majority currently. I wouldn't want to cross a mob of geezers as the consequences would probably be much more creative and nefarious (silent). Laughing
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mgrolnick



Joined: 15 May 2010
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Westender was basically assaulted. Reply with quote

biffmalibu wrote:


Mower: Since I was downwind and on starboard point of sail, I had right of way! So the collision was Westender's fault.
Judge: But did you still have time and space to avoid this collision?
Mower: Yes. Lots.
Judge: Judgement goes to defendant (Westender) as plaintiff (Mower) intentionally and UNNECESSARILY held collision course when he could have easily avoided.



Both would be liable. A couple of excerpts from the US Coast Guard Navigation Rules (Inland):

Rule 8 - Action to Avoid Collision: para (f)(iii) A vessel, the passage of which is not to be impeded remains fully obliged to comply with the rules of this part when the two vessels are approaching one another so as to involve risk of collision.

Rule 17 - Action by Stand-on Vessel: para (a)(i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and speed. (ii) The latter vessel may, however, take action to avoid collision by her maneuver alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these rules.

Even Professional Mariners have a hard time keeping up with the rules, and we expect a bunch of boardheads to know them?

Bottom line...on crowded days be aware and respectful of other folks on the water and most importantly, if someone cuts you off, just remind yourself that you are still having fun, at least you are on the water and not at work! Laughing
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14310

PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnl wrote:
BUT the question is how do you know they "deliberately get directly in the way"? .... they say "yeah I saw you, so get out of my way!" then deal with them appropriately Evil or Very Mad

Sometimes it's clearly incompetence. Idiot Hatchery newbie correctly yelling "Look out; I can't steer", as she rammed or cut off anyone unable to avoid her for a whole session. Or people ahead of you jibing successfully but w/o looking, then getting BIG eyes when they exit the jibe into your face; they don’t know you’re ready to dodge, so your point is made without uttering a word.

Sometimes it's blatant aggression, like oncoming idiots blazing within 3-4 feet of people waterstarting or trying to pump onto a plane. Once, you ignore it; twice, you accidentally drop your rig. Then there’s the racerhed lawnmower jiber at the Event Site shoreline hero zone cutting other jibers off mid-jibe, only to have the wave board he just cut off pull a quick upwind-downwind S-turn to cut off Mssr Hero big time, sending him ass over teakettle 10 feet in front of the crowd he was trying to impress.

Sometimes not sure, until it becomes obvious. Guy oncoming on port, with acres of empty water around, forces you off your straight starboard line once, you ignore it and presume stupidity. Twice, you know it's deliberate and make him earn it. Third time, you hold your line, let him bail, luff your sail, lean over into his face, and yell, “Get out of MY ^!%•ª¶%* way”.

(He did.)

Then there are the ones in a class by themselves, such as the Dangler, Benito, and the kiter coming up from behind and below me telling me to get out of his way as he tries to pinch me into a stall in open water. You press charges on the first two and laugh at the third.

Mike \.!./
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