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Bond1



Joined: 25 Apr 2000
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnl wrote:


And once again, swell on a river is not a wave.


I've never participated in an argument on that topic, but I'd be interested in reading your proof.
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1170
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bond1 wrote:
johnl wrote:


And once again, swell on a river is not a wave.


I've never participated in an argument on that topic, but I'd be interested in reading your proof.


How about this taken from the "Surfers Handbook" Once again it talks about ETIQUITTE not legal laws such as ROW. And it talks about SURF, not swell (which I'm sure if I looked up might be the same as the river)...



Surfing Etiquette
Surfing Etiquette is the most important thing to learn before you set foot in the surf. These rules are not so much “rules” as they are a proper code of conduct designed to keep everyone in the water safe and happy. People who repeatedly break these rules are often given the stink-eye, a stern talking to, yelled at with obscenities, or just flat out beat up.
Don’t worry, if you accidentally drop in on someone they aren’t going to beat you up. However, there are rules of the road out there and this is the real world. If you’re constantly stealing waves or not being respectful, you’re going to have a run in.
With the growing popularity of surfing, the number of people in the water is on the rise and unfortunately surfing etiquette is gradually eroding away. The ocean is a dangerous place, and without proper thought to safety it can become deadly.
New surfers should memorize these rules, and even veterans should take a refresher course now and then.
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Bond1



Joined: 25 Apr 2000
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnl wrote:
Bond1 wrote:
johnl wrote:


And once again, swell on a river is not a wave.


I've never participated in an argument on that topic, but I'd be interested in reading your proof.


How about this taken from the "Surfers Handbook" Once again it talks about ETIQUITTE not legal laws such as ROW. And it talks about SURF, not swell (which I'm sure if I looked up might be the same as the river)...



Surfing Etiquette
Surfing Etiquette is the most important thing to learn before you set foot in the surf. These rules are not so much “rules” as they are a proper code of conduct designed to keep everyone in the water safe and happy. People who repeatedly break these rules are often given the stink-eye, a stern talking to, yelled at with obscenities, or just flat out beat up.
Don’t worry, if you accidentally drop in on someone they aren’t going to beat you up. However, there are rules of the road out there and this is the real world. If you’re constantly stealing waves or not being respectful, you’re going to have a run in.
With the growing popularity of surfing, the number of people in the water is on the rise and unfortunately surfing etiquette is gradually eroding away. The ocean is a dangerous place, and without proper thought to safety it can become deadly.
New surfers should memorize these rules, and even veterans should take a refresher course now and then.


Crap. You're right. It's not a wave. What was I thinking.
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1170
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or going to a dictionary....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surf

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swell_(ocean)

But it really doesn't matter. Since the surfer "rules" ie etiquette, is for people in the surf zone. Not on a navigable river.

But just to be clear, I enjoy carving turns on river swell (or any type of swell) just as much as everybody else, I just don't make a big deal out of it if somebody else causes me to loose my ride. Cause we are all SHARING the river after all....
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Bond1



Joined: 25 Apr 2000
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnl wrote:
Or going to a dictionary....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surf

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swell_(ocean)

But it really doesn't matter. Since the surfer "rules" ie etiquette, is for people in the surf zone. Not on a navigable river.

But just to be clear, I enjoy carving turns on river swell (or any type of swell) just as much as everybody else, I just don't make a big deal out of it if somebody else causes me to loose my ride. Cause we are all SHARING the river after all....


Oh come on. Tell me you're kidding. You said it wasn't a wave, which is totally untrue. A wave is not specific to water. A wave can happen in virtually any medium. It's definition doesn't change when it occurs in water, or when it moves from ocean water to river water. All this you're saying here has nothing to do with that. So I have to assume your tongue is in your cheek.
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1170
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes you are correct. I took Swell and Surf but said wave. Yes it can be a wave. But it cannot be surf. And it is wind driven swell, but not "true swell".

But like I said none of that matters since the stuff people are talking about are SURF etiquettes and have absolutely nothing to do with river swell nor legal ROW laws that apply to all "vessels" (which windsurfers are a part of)...

But yes, you caught me "mistyping" My Bad... Embarassed
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Bond1



Joined: 25 Apr 2000
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnl wrote:
Yes you are correct. I took Swell and Surf but said wave. Yes it can be a wave. But it cannot be surf. And it is wind driven swell, but not "true swell".

But like I said none of that matters since the stuff people are talking about are SURF etiquettes and have absolutely nothing to do with river swell nor legal ROW laws that apply to all "vessels" (which windsurfers are a part of)...

But yes, you caught me "mistyping" My Bad... Embarassed


Okay.

It seems to me an etiquete has been forming over the years in the Gorge that's a combination of right of way rules, and respect for position on or when approaching a wave. Not everyone is familiar with this etiquette, but most folks who have been sailing the Gorge a while, no matter how they describe it here, know it pretty well. If this weren't true we'd have far more accidents out there.

There will probably always be some who don't get it, and some who don't want to respect it, but that's life in general. Not everyone gets it.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14169

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And even if we Yanks DID agree on some uniform ROW code, there's this little Canuck difference. Many of them are absolutely certain that sailors, including kiters and WSers, have ROW over barges simply because the former are at the mercy of the wind.

Also, From "The American Practical Navigator" (or Bowditch)

[The American Practical Navigator, first published in 1802, was billed as the "epitome of navigation" by its original author, Nathaniel Bowditch. The text has evolved with the advances in navigation practices since that first issue and continues to serve as a valuable reference for marine navigation in the modern day.

The publication describes in detail the principles and factors of navigation, including piloting, electronic navigation, celestial navigation, mathematics, safety, oceanography and meterology]. :

Swell: A relatively long wind wave, or series of waves, that has traveled out of the generating area [i.e., the wind]. In contrast the term SEA is applied to the waves while still in the generating area. As these waves travel away from the [windy] area in which they are formed, the shorter ones die out. The surviving waves exhibit a more regular and longer period with flatter crests. When these waves reach shoal water, they become more prominent in height and of decreased wave length and are then known as ground swell.

A wave is simply a ridge above the surface of the liquid. So, in other words, a swell is a type [subset] of wave.
-----------
The Encyclopedia Britannica concurs.

Beaufort concurs.

Since Gorge terrain is both wind generated AND persists only in the presence of wind, it is NOT "swell" but, in fact, waves. IYOW, all swells are waves, but not all waves are swell.

Now can we get past that stupid, inconsequential, pointless, territorial part of the ROW debate?
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scottwerden



Joined: 11 Jul 1999
Posts: 213

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone ever watch swarming behavior like flies around a carcass, or schools of fish, or birds? They all behave independently and random but they manage to avoid collisions. The Hatch reminds me of swarming behavior. Chaos in motion. Birds and moths can figure it out; I believe that WS'ers can too. For me, I am just gonna sail my secret spots and avoid all of ye.

BTW, the physics of a wind-driven ocean wave is exactly the same as the physics of a wind-driven river wave. Both are governed by the same equation. The only difference is that ocean waves are ridden in the shoaling phase, while we in the gorge ride waves in the propagating phase. Other than that they are two side to the same coin.
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 1251
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bwahahaha!

Mr. Bond we must do beers sometime.

-Craig

Bond1 wrote:
Mulekick84 wrote:
What about us guys who jump one, then ride one?


I guess you just ruin your own day.
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