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Benghazi-gate
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5575

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bard--weren't there two different attacks at two different locations at two different times?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14625

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will never, ever forget SecDef Panetta's world-class-asinine words after the incident: "You don't deploy forces into harm's way without knowing what's going on. [We] felt we could not put forces at risk in that situation."That statement should go down in history among the dumbest, most cowardly thoughts and words every conceived by any man or woman responsible for the physical armed protection of others.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4344

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
Bard--weren't there two different attacks at two different locations at two different times?


There was one single attack that lasted 8 1/2 hours. The terrorits were busy downstairs defiling the Ambassador while the 2 ex Seals were on the roof pleading for intervention.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5575

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bard--you are wrong. Two attacks.

Quote:
The night of the attack, as described by the State Department's review board and other accounts:

Seven Americans are at State's temporary residential compound in Benghazi that night: U.S. Ambassador Chris Stevens, visiting from the embassy in Tripoli; computer specialist Sean Smith and five diplomatic security officers. They are a minority among U.S. personnel in Benghazi; most work for the CIA, which operates a secret "annex" about a mile away.

Egyptian demonstrators had scaled the walls of the U.S. Embassy in Cairo hours earlier to protest an American amateur filmmaker's video mocking the Prophet Muhammad. But there were no demonstrations that day in Benghazi. The attack begins suddenly around 9:40 p.m. gunfire, explosions, sounds of chanting and then dozens of armed men swarming through the compound's main entrance. Libyans hired to guard the compound flee.

A security officer hustles Stevens and Smith into a fortified "safe room." It fills with blinding smoke when the attackers set the building on fire with diesel fuel, and the two men become separated from the security officer.

A CIA team from the annex arrives about 25 minutes into the attack and helps search for the two diplomats inside the smoke-filled room, while gunfire continues outside. Only Smith's body is found. Eventually the U.S. personnel escape in armored vehicles, plowing through gunfire and grenade blasts to the CIA annex across town. Rocket-propelled grenades and mortar fire target the annex intermittently for an hour after midnight.

A team of six security officials summoned from Tripoli arrives around 5 a.m. Soon after, another assault on the annex begins. A mortar blast kills CIA security contractors Tyrone Woods and Glen Doherty. About an hour later, a Libyan military unit arrives to help evacuate the U.S. personnel.

After the Americans fled the diplomatic compound, Benghazi civilians found Ambassador Stevens in the wreckage and drove him to a hospital, but he couldn't be saved. Like Smith, he died of smoke inhalation.


Like I said from the beginning, there were CIA operatives, apparently quite a few, in Libya. No surprise there--and the reality is that the presence of a fairly substantial CIA operation did not achieve intelligence that predicted the attack. Neither the increased security requested, nor the CIA operatives that were there, nor military personnel from Italy would have saved Stevens in the first attack. Scrambling a team from Italy might have helped with the second attack--hindsight is always 20:20.

Credibility matters. We obviously overestimated the good will that we might have counted on in Libya, help from the government, and the organization of radical jihadis. Those are errors in judgement, not cowardice or conspiracy.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3538

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The story reads as a variation on every other successful terrorist attack.
The giant might of the US military could have stopped this attack, better than any small group of seals.
It probably could have stopped them all, there have been thousands.
This one is Special.
It has been chosen as part of the scandal making machine down at the GOP.
They really want you to to think this terrorist attack is unique and solely a result of the fear in the heart of that traitor Obama.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4344

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If there were indeed 2 separate attacks, that makes it even worse. This is American soil. Technically equivalent to attacking downtown San Francisco. There should have been troops to regain possession and maintain order immediately.

Oh....The Ambassador is dead, so now we don't have to worry about the rest of the crew? Really? They can fend for themselves. WTF? This is not a GOP engineered scandal. Some may try to use this for their political advantage at their peril IMO. Right is right.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 6032

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bard, you really need to get a reasonable perspective on things.

We set up shop in Libya, and then later when there are problems about that, we should go in to do what? You appear to be suggesting that we declare war, send in our military and kick ass big time? It seems to me that you're entering isobars' world. From earlier comments you've made, I thought that you were getting a bit tired of our wars in the Middle East. I know I am.

Also, I would give the San Francisco thing a rest. And, what's with playing around with its spelling?
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chandler, if you didn't know, all U.S. Embassys are on U.S. soil. We have the right and duty to protect Americans who are on American soil. Likewise, any foreign embassy in the U.S. is protected, because technically they are on their own soil, not ours.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5575

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bard--you have fallen into the Fox news trap--the only coherent Middle-East policy by the Republicans is the opposite of what Obama is trying. Sudden reversals, like mrgybe's over Lebanon (two 180 degree turns) and whiplash are the result.

Look at George Will's column today on Morsi. http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-will-egypts-preferable-tyranny/2013/07/10/84b049a8-e8c0-11e2-a301-ea5a8116d211_story.html
I think Will lays out the quandary. The lessons of the Middle East are difficult, and continue to be difficult with no easy answers. In Iraq we deposed a terrible man, hated by most of the public, and have a result where most Iraqis would prefer Saddam. In Afghanistan we have seem to again prove the point that the country is the graveyard of empires. In Libya, our assistance in their efforts deposing a dictator, and a substantial CIA presence, did not give us advance knowledge of the attacks in Benghazi. Syria is in a civil war with not good answers for the United States, and Lebanon is now involved. The simple liberal answer--support revolution, as well as the hawkish answer--send troops--seem to be counterproductive.

You seem to be arguing that Obama and/or Clinton was a coward for not immediately scrambling a military force from Italy that might, or might not, have prevented a second attack. In making this argument you have quoted from suspect sources and made conclusions about timelines and the number of attacks that are not true--yet it remains Obama's fault. I think the lessons of Mogadishu were lost on you--but not on Obama. I for one am thankful that he has the courage to stand up to the military's usual knee jerk reaction of a forceful response without adequate intelligence, and think twice before putting more American troops in harms way. Would that Bush had such courage.
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feuser



Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1398

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
Chandler, if you didn't know, all U.S. Embassys are on U.S. soil. We have the right and duty to protect Americans who are on American soil. Likewise, any foreign embassy in the U.S. is protected, because technically they are on their own soil, not ours.


Oh, Bard - Time to go back to basics.

Permanent diplomatic missions are not technically soil of the foreign power they represent, they are only exempt from the host nation's laws (not all).

Moreover, they are not protected by force, their protection is the duty of the host nation. They are really a product of and symbol of bilateral relationships of host and represented nation, not some military outpost.

Putting the ambassador in the middle of an active military or secret service operation, or using diplomatic assets to carry out a CIA mission targeting terrorist groups operating within the host country is dangerous and violates the principles of diplomatic relationships.

The complexity of the situation and the multiple roles Stephens took on in the disarmament of extremist rebel groups after the revolution are simply beyond the grasp of the scandal-making-machine of the GOP and its audience. That includes you, Bard.

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