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modulating jibe radius
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14313

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boardsurfr wrote:
get the Dasher 12 Step Jibe Video, it shows really nicely how to get there. But here's a very short summary of important points ...

1. Move both hands back on the boom. The front hand should be close to the harness line, the back hand needs to move at least 6-8 inches back.

Both Dasher and Wyatt are obviously expert sailors and instructors, yet they differ dramatically in this step. Wyatt says "slide your front hand all the way forward on the boom."

The message here is all but universal regarding WSing techniques: There are many ways to skin any cat.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1220

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wyatt refers to moving his hand to the boom head to facilitate the rig flip, mid transition.

Dasher refers to getting back on the boom during the jibe set up, so when the windsurfer unhooks, hangs, and lets the rig pull them forward to initiate the turn, the sail is as far forward as possible.

You really should take a clinic.

isobars wrote:

Both Dasher and Wyatt are obviously expert sailors and instructors, yet they differ dramatically in this step. Wyatt says "slide your front hand all the way forward on the boom."

The message here is all but universal regarding WSing techniques: There are many ways to skin any cat.

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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1220

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

feuser wrote:
.
It really helps to consciously unload the fin at the jibe entry.


I've never heard that said before, but yes! Could be particularly good advice for back foot heavy jibers. For myself I know when I feel the fin lighten up it's time to duck (in a duck jibe).

I hope we get some thermals this afternoon...I want to pay more attention to this.

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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 566

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeconicPuffin wrote:
Wyatt refers to moving his hand to the boom head to facilitate the rig flip, mid transition.

Guy Cribb calls it the "boom shaka". Dasher has it as step 11 of his 12 steps. ABK teaches it, too. It's always at the same point in the jibe, before the rig flip, and not at the preparation/entry that I was discussing.

Moving the hand towards the boom at the entry is what you'd do in the "air jibe", as Tricktionary calls it. More commonly, it's referred to as the Vulcan. Perhaps isobars listened to Wyatt when he gave a Vulcan lecture and got confused. Although iso should be really interested in the Vulcan, since that is definitely the fastest 180 degree rotation in any jibe, and the board is still planing after the rotation (albeit backwards).
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14313

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeconicPuffin wrote:
Wyatt refers to moving his hand to the boom head to facilitate the rig flip, mid transition.

Dasher refers to getting back on the boom during the jibe set up, so when the windsurfer unhooks, hangs, and lets the rig pull them forward to initiate the turn, the sail is as far forward as possible.

So you're telling us that, rather than your interpretation simply being wrong, these guys want us to move our hands way back for the first part of the jibe, bear off and sail a broad reach for a while, then somewhere in the middle of the jibe we're supposed to move our hands way forward and mash down on the boom, then, I guess, grab and release the boom and/or mast a couple/few MORE times to jibe the sail, all while moving each foot multiple times to get out of the straps, sliding our front heel across the centerline and weighting it for steering, stepping way forward with the old back foot, transferring weight onto the new back foot so we can lift the front foot and stick it in its strap, lifting our back foot and get into its strap, moving our hands AGAIN to the proper sailing position, raking the sail back and hooking in ... ALL JUST TO GET TURNED AROUND?

That's not a jibe; it's a damned marathon, and my brain hasn't enough cells to remember, let alone time and sequence, all that.

Back foot on rail, thrust hips, THROW/THROW/GRAB/GO, switch both feet simultaneously, DONE* ... all faster than you can say the words normally.

* No, I didn't forget to type "raking the sail back and hooking in"; when done right, the harness lines fling out via centrifugal force and hook in while both feet are off the deck switching stance and the sail is spinning. All that remains is getting in the straps, FFF or BFF, if your feet didn't engage one (rare), or both (hen's teeth) straps when they came down.

You run the marathon; I'm a sprinter. You do it your way, I'll do it mine. What a concept: to each his own.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1220

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the jibe set up, the front hand is close to the harness lines while the back hand moves back a foot or so, depending on the rig size. This allows the sailor to get the rig well forward during the carve (which accelerates the carve) as well as having the leverage to oversheet.

During the sail flip, the front hand slides to the crotch of the boom, to facilitate the sail throw. See Boardsurfr's comment. Or Cribb's video or Dasher's, or as I keep suggesting, take an ABK clinic.

Relative to jibing you think you're a sprinter? As johnI said, let's see some video. Show the world how to git er done.



isobars wrote:
PeconicPuffin wrote:
Wyatt refers to moving his hand to the boom head to facilitate the rig flip, mid transition.

Dasher refers to getting back on the boom during the jibe set up, so when the windsurfer unhooks, hangs, and lets the rig pull them forward to initiate the turn, the sail is as far forward as possible.

So you're telling us that, rather than your interpretation simply being wrong, these guys want us to move our hands way back for the first part of the jibe, bear off and sail a broad reach for a while, then somewhere in the middle of the jibe we're supposed to move our hands way forward and mash down on the boom, then, I guess, grab and release the boom and/or mast a couple/few MORE times to jibe the sail, all while moving each foot multiple times to get out of the straps, sliding our front heel across the centerline and weighting it for steering, stepping way forward with the old back foot, transferring weight onto the new back foot so we can lift the front foot and stick it in its strap, lifting our back foot and get into its strap, moving our hands AGAIN to the proper sailing position, raking the sail back and hooking in ... ALL JUST TO GET TURNED AROUND?

That's not a jibe; it's a damned marathon, and my brain hasn't enough cells to remember, let alone time and sequence, all that.

Back foot on rail, thrust hips, THROW/THROW/GRAB/GO, switch both feet simultaneously, DONE* ... all faster than you can say the words normally.

* No, I didn't forget to type "raking the sail back and hooking in"; when done right, the harness lines fling out via centrifugal force and hook in while both feet are off the deck switching stance and the sail is spinning. All that remains is getting in the straps, FFF or BFF, if your feet didn't engage one (rare), or both (hen's teeth) straps when they came down.

You run the marathon; I'm a sprinter. You do it your way, I'll do it mine. What a concept: to each his own.

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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1220

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the jibe set up, the front hand is close to the harness lines while the back hand moves back a foot or so, depending on the rig size. This allows the sailor to get the rig well forward during the carve (which accelerates the carve) as well as having the leverage to oversheet.

During the sail flip, the front hand slides to the crotch of the boom, to facilitate the sail throw. See Boardsurfr's comment. Or Cribb's video or Dasher's, or as I keep suggesting, take an ABK clinic. Proper jibe technique is worth it, and contrary to your fears, there isn't an excess of steps. There are just enough.

Relative to jibing you think you're a sprinter? As johnI said, let's see some video. Show the world how to git er done. It's the 21st century...in clinics they demonstrate technique (and shoot video) in media videos are distributed by instructors, and even in forums we're posting video of ourselves that our friends have taken. It's no longer about typing.



isobars wrote:
PeconicPuffin wrote:
Wyatt refers to moving his hand to the boom head to facilitate the rig flip, mid transition.

Dasher refers to getting back on the boom during the jibe set up, so when the windsurfer unhooks, hangs, and lets the rig pull them forward to initiate the turn, the sail is as far forward as possible.

So you're telling us that, rather than your interpretation simply being wrong, these guys want us to move our hands way back for the first part of the jibe, bear off and sail a broad reach for a while, then somewhere in the middle of the jibe we're supposed to move our hands way forward and mash down on the boom, then, I guess, grab and release the boom and/or mast a couple/few MORE times to jibe the sail, all while moving each foot multiple times to get out of the straps, sliding our front heel across the centerline and weighting it for steering, stepping way forward with the old back foot, transferring weight onto the new back foot so we can lift the front foot and stick it in its strap, lifting our back foot and get into its strap, moving our hands AGAIN to the proper sailing position, raking the sail back and hooking in ... ALL JUST TO GET TURNED AROUND?

That's not a jibe; it's a damned marathon, and my brain hasn't enough cells to remember, let alone time and sequence, all that.

Back foot on rail, thrust hips, THROW/THROW/GRAB/GO, switch both feet simultaneously, DONE* ... all faster than you can say the words normally.

* No, I didn't forget to type "raking the sail back and hooking in"; when done right, the harness lines fling out via centrifugal force and hook in while both feet are off the deck switching stance and the sail is spinning. All that remains is getting in the straps, FFF or BFF, if your feet didn't engage one (rare), or both (hen's teeth) straps when they came down.

You run the marathon; I'm a sprinter. You do it your way, I'll do it mine. What a concept: to each his own.

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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14313

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anybody who wants to expend precious shred time chasing me around the river to video me is welcome to do so, but I would never ask that of anyone.

I beg to differ with "no excess steps". Between planting the back foot on the rail and getting back into the straps, you do six or seven things with your feet:
1. Raise your front heel in its strap to lever the windward rail up to initiate the carve.
2. Lower that heel.
3. Slide your front foot out of its strap
4. Slide that heel across the centerline to maintain the carve.
5. Use the inside/rail foot to modulate the carve.
6. Step well forward with the old back foot.
7. Slide the new back foot back near (or maybe into) the rear strap.

Between planting the back foot on the rail and getting back into the straps, I unweight and simultaneously switch both feet to their exit positions. Done. That footwork takes maybe a quarter of a second.

Want proof? Stand up and stagger your feet so one's in the front foot strap location, the other is "on the rail". Now unweight them ... i.e., hop them off the floor just high enough to clear the front strap with your rail foot... and switch 'em. If that takes you more than a quarter of a second, you're defying gravity, because a 3"-high-jump lasts only 0.250 seconds. Do the math.

If you can do those 6 or 7 steps quicker than that, I bow to thee.

Timing of the foot switch depends on many factors, as does the sail flip, but the only handwork from inbound beam reach to exit beam reach is sliding the front hand forward, then a THROW/THROW/GRAB/GO about as fast as you can say it, well under a second, at which point you are sheeted in and accelerating on the new broad reach, maybe even hooked in.

YOU take the ABK camp.
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watermonkey



Joined: 16 May 2003
Posts: 66

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't been back on the water yet, but I'm pretty sure the wrench in the works is extending my arm forward, along the centerline of the board (only), rather than extending it across the board into the turn. Presumably this is why I'm not feeling the rig pull me into the turn and instead catapulting me forward. Derf.

Otherwise, the sail handling of the GC video makes complete sense to me. Dasher video is on the way...might as well collect them all. Thanks for the pointer to the Alan Cadiz videos.

Individual lessons tend to work better for me than groups (I've been to ABK as an intermediate, actually)...so I'll look up Jason next.

feuser wrote:

It really helps to consciously unload the fin at the jibe entry. This will automatically get you to do many of the "right things" (softening your knees, leaning forward and into the turn, setting the entire length of your leeward rail - as opposed to riding the fin straight downwind).


Doesn't that occur regardless as a result of relaxing your back leg to get it out of the rear strap? Or are you basically saying, "try not to load up the back foot at all throughout the turn" ?

Also, I don't entirely follow how relaxing both knees allows you to get your weight forward...perhaps after fixing the front-arm-extending thing it will make more sense...
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Sailboarder



Joined: 10 Apr 2011
Posts: 443

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

watermonkey wrote:
I haven't been back on the water yet, but I'm pretty sure the wrench in the works is extending my arm forward, along the centerline of the board (only), rather than extending it across the board into the turn. Presumably this is why I'm not feeling the rig pull me into the turn and instead catapulting me forward. Derf.


Disclaimer: I don't jibe properly yet.

I was asking about how to feel you are properly oversheeting and a friend explained it to me with a drawing last week. He controls the pull in with his sail.

I have the bad habit of opening up the sail when I bear away (from sublaning sailing I guess). This pulls forward, but looses speed soon and I am then in a bad position to try to oversheet. When you overheet a bit, you get less forward drive from the sail and more pull across the board. If you oversheet more, you will depower more the sail.

So from my friend explanations, I also guess we need to extend our front arm across the board (and pull our back arm) in order to depower the sail and feel the inside turn pull.

I also understand from what I read that the board should turn mostly from the feet, helped by the back move of the back hand, and not by an extension of the front arm towards the nose of the board.

I hope I'll be able to practice again today. Wind is low (as usual here) so it will unfortunately be with a 9,0.
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