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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1205

PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
Quote; 'If you think that people who have learned any aspect of windsurfing with instruction have less satisfaction than the self taught, you're mistaken,'

That was NOT what I said! I said that MY satisfaction comes from self discovery, the converse being that I personally would get far less satisfaction from being taught. I was NOT speaking for others.


My misunderstanding!

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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13866

PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose depending on some Universal Instruction System to learn "The Way" is OK, but if everyone learned and/or sailed "The Way", neither the word "freestyle" nor the head dip would have ever been invented and except for monkeys and ducks everyone would be doing the same jibes we see all day, often ending in a porpoising stall for subexperts. I jibe wide when hurting for power, but much prefer as tight and fast as possible, especially when at full speed in rough water. My much simpler foot- and handwork work for all board speeds and radii as long as movement speed and timing are adjusted as required.

Not everyone has the luxury of flat water to learn to jibe on; my NM lakes were at least bumpy, often thigh to waist high, so we had to learn to jibe on whatever terrain presented itself, in gusts or lulls. Some, including myself, simply get lost in the very complex and highly choreographed hand and foot dance Guy Cribbs illustrates. He’s doing 6 or 8 unnecessary things with his hands and feet I never could figure out and don’t have time for at full speed in 2 to 3 feet of junk terrain.

Besdes, making every jibe or every reach dry means I'm not pushing the envelope hard enough. If staying dry were important, I'd switch back to dirt bikes. If I wanted to do everything slowly, I'd switch to curling. Some folks just want to get turned around any way they can, others want their turns to be a simple, smooth but rapid, 180-degree slash. Some of us would rather eat our lunch on shore, and I'd love to see someone with ordinary skills try to shuck and eat an oyster while getting turned around in four feet of Gorge chopswell at top beam reach speed. And if Panebianco’s bear-wrestling jibe approach for high winds/gusts is any indication of how mass-produced jibes work under duress, we’d all need 15.5” biceps and 47” chests to sail in the real world.

If “The Way” were the only valid way to sail, I’d be getting in the straps FFF all the time despite its disadvantages, rigging for efficiency rather than for high-powered FUN, buying new boards every time the mfrs and dealers say last year’s stuff is no good, using harness lines so long I can’t reach the booms, clearing my sail manually after every dunking because my booms won’t touch the tail, using frigging cams, spending half of each reach looking for smooth jibing spots or jibing only in the shoreline hero zones, buying off-the-shelf sails, mashing down on my booms during jibes, and getting fat from eating lunch during every jibe. That’s 10 strikes; I’m out. I’d have to change sports ‘cause they’d say my approach is neither correct, fun, nor advantageous.

No, thanks. We don’t all have the same skills or objectives. Pretend there’s a big red X across this shot:
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whitevan01



Joined: 29 Jun 2007
Posts: 453

PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny you should mention freestyle. there is something I've thought about the genre of windsurfing that is called freestyle. I need to get this off my chest, so to speak, so here goes:

I agree that there is alot of style in freestyle sailing. However, I seem to be arriving inexorably at conclusion (unless someone can convince me otherwise) that there it is not really free. I mean, doesn't everybody do (or try to do) the same moves? How is that free? they don't seem to be done in combination, so there isn't any freedom in what order they might be done, so what is really free about freestyle? I suppose that it gives one the freedom to come up with one's own move (which very few do), then the rest of the "free"stylers set about learning that move. Curious in a way, isn't it?

anyway, this is just one old geek's take. I'm not even a very good windsurfer and I marvel at what people can do with a windsurf rig.
I won't ever get near the level of some sailors at even my local launch, so what do I know? (starting at age 52 doesn't make learning a whole new sport easy)
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windward1



Joined: 18 Jun 2000
Posts: 654

PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:20 pm    Post subject: Inventiveness Reply with quote

Not everyone in our society is an inventor. In fact very few are. However, everyone (almost) uses the inventions.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13866

PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always equated the term "freestyle" to tricks ... stuff done for show, or personal satisfaction, or competition ... anything that serves no inherent purpose related to some other more pragmatic, objective like getting from point A to point B. The term simply distinguishes freestyle from BAFfing, B&J, racing, DTL wave sailing, etc.

IMO, the "free " refers to "whatever you and everyone else can think of, useful or not", not "at no expense". Lord knows the expense of freestyle tricks is HUGE.

First, it's for goal-oriented people willing to sacrifice play time to achieve an objective, in this case a trick. We hedonists who demand our playtime NOW need not apply. We just wanna play, keeping no score, and of course get better at playing as we go along.

It takes from scores to many hundreds of attempts, sometimes years of calendar time -- aka practice, aka work -- to learn each trick. That's a lot of play time sacrificed on the altar.

Some freestylers rig small to aid their rig handling, leaving them slogging most of the time the rest of us are shreddin'. Their goal is to plane enough to try one trick per reach, even if the rest of us plane for 3-4 reaches in the meantime. That's a huge cost right there, considering the rarity of good wind.

Some freestylers go out in 5 mph wind and thrash themselves to pieces, happy as pigs in $#!+ to be on the water trying to learn something new, adrenaline be damned, whereas others like myself need adrenaline, not merely effort, to get stoked. I can bust my ass in the gym or den without having to load my van, drive 70 miles, unload my van, rig a pile of $#!+, squirm into a damned wetsuit, put on armor, carry my $#!+ to the water, slog or swim to the windline, catch a few rides, try a few stunts, then play that whole tape back in reverse.

If they're serious about it, they gotta buy special boards, many of which beat them to pieces when at speed on chop. They have to buy special tiny fins which ENCOURAGE spinout; they get around that by calling spinning out "sliding". Under any name, getting sideways sed to be a bugaboo but has become all the rage, at least among freestylers.

They're a patient breed. Who else would spend months to years to learn just
ONE non-functional move? Waterstarts are mandatory and jibes ultimately save HUGE amounts of time, but no-handed flakeroodles? ... I heard one dood tried that one 5,438 times -- it's all he did for 6 seasons -- and broke six masts, two boards, and one buttcheek before planing out of his first flakeroodle. (Oops ... no, that was Joe Lundstrom, and it was a loop, not a flakeroodle.)

I'm guessing freestylers and K2 climbers share a common gene that rewards them somehow for beating their heads against a wall until either the head or the wall breaks. The rest of us just wanna have fun.

Now, about racerhedz ... but that's another story.
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1143
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:


First, it's for goal-oriented people willing to sacrifice play time to achieve an objective, in this case a trick. We hedonists who demand our playtime NOW need not apply. We just wanna play, keeping no score, and of course get better at playing as we go along.

It takes from scores to many hundreds of attempts, sometimes years of calendar time -- aka practice, aka work -- to learn each trick. That's a lot of play time sacrificed on the altar.

Some freestylers rig small to aid their rig handling, leaving them slogging most of the time the rest of us are shreddin'. Their goal is to plane enough to try one trick per reach, even if the rest of us plane for 3-4 reaches in the meantime. That's a huge cost right there, considering the rarity of good wind.
....
I'm guessing freestylers and K2 climbers share a common gene that rewards them somehow for beating their heads against a wall until either the head or the wall breaks. The rest of us just wanna have fun.

Now, about racerhedz ... but that's another story.


Mike you don't get it and never will. So I'll do the short answer. Freestyle IS sailing. It is not a waste of time or "waste of play time" cause it IS PLAY TIME. You just don't get it.

Also as usual you are off. Ask the people who sail around me. I'm normally on a smaller sail and I'm NOT slogging, in fact I'm usually the one planning AND planning though my jibes. But that is neither here nor there.

As to your climbing example, another example that you don't just get it. Climbing is ABOUT the climb. Now I won't go into a discussion on whether it's fun or not, because pure mountain climbing is about suffering if you have done this you would know. But they are out there testing themselves.

If you really want to use a climbing example to compare freestyle windsurfing, I would use very hard sport climbing as an example. They are going from point A to B just like windsurfers but what makes the difference is HOW they get there. Sport climbing is all about "the moves". Freestyle is the same.

Heck if I hadn't gotten into Freestyle years ago, I probably wouldn't be sailing much anymore. Cause like many, going from point A to B, making all my jibes, then sailing back was getting boring. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed being outside in the wind on the water, but windsurfing itself was getting stale. Freestyle is what breathed life back into my windsurfing.

Okay maybe this wasn't that short.... Rolling Eyes
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13866

PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnl wrote:
1. Freestyle IS sailing. It is not a waste of time or "waste of play time" cause it IS PLAY TIME. You just don't get it.

2. you are off.


3. I'm normally on a smaller sail and I'm NOT slogging, in fact I'm usually the one planning AND planning though my jibes.

4. But that is neither here nor there.

5. As to your climbing example, another example that you don't just get it. Climbing is ABOUT the climb. Now I won't go into a discussion on whether it's fun or not, because pure mountain climbing is about suffering if you have done this you would know. But they are out there testing themselves.

6. Sport climbing is all about "the moves". Freestyle is the same.

7. Going from point A to B, making all my jibes, then sailing back was getting boring....

8. Freestyle is what breathed life back into my windsurfing.


1. Read my post again. I'm talking about freestyle PRACTICE -- the hard work that ultimately produces a skill -- not actually performing freestyle tricks. I've tried it, and MUCH prefer actually windsurfing.

2. Actually, I'm dead on. I am the world's foremost authority in my personal OPINIONS.

3. I never said you were not planing. I said SOME freestylers ... the foremost example will remain unnamed.

4. Except that it cuts those sailors' precious aerial freestyle/planing time by 50%, and they aren't doing slogging tricks.

5. I get it. They have a gene I don't. That's all I said. Good for them. Having to stop and heave for air with literally every step is not fun to me, suffering is suffering, and it doesn't interest me. Get over it.

6. Sport climbing is great. Put it at 20,000 feet and IN MY OPINION it ceases to be fun. Even sitting in an altitude chamber @ 20,000 feet trying to add two numbers sucks.

7. I agree; that's one reason I like fast, tight, jibes. They're like the rest of my reach except they cover 180 rather than 90 degrees.

8. Great; I never said it wasn't enjoyable, just that it doesn't fullfil me.

You say "as usual" I am off. Well, as usual, people read stuff I never posted.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1205

PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis0778 wrote:
they don't seem to be done in combination, so there isn't any freedom in what order they might be done, so what is really free about freestyle?


Dennis, doing them in improvised combination is what makes nonplaning freestyle so much fun (once you are able to link moves)! I'll get in the water with a 5.3 and 150 liter board, and spin and and spin (helitack, backwind pivot jibe, backwind pivot duck, clewfirst of all, fin first of all, back to back etc) Jacks, Icabods, Piledrivers etc until I literally don't know where the nose of the board is unless I look down. Surely you've seen Mike Burns spin to infinity? Or Andy Brandt? Hell I'll go make a fool of myself to make the point, the next time we're on the same beach together.

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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1143
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:


1. Read my post again. I'm talking about freestyle PRACTICE -- the hard work that ultimately produces a skill -- not actually performing freestyle tricks. I've tried it, and MUCH prefer actually windsurfing.

2. Actually, I'm dead on. I am the world's foremost authority in my personal OPINIONS.

3. I never said you were not planing. I said SOME freestylers ... the foremost example will remain unnamed.

4. Except that it cuts those sailors' precious aerial freestyle/planing time by 50%, and they aren't doing slogging tricks.

5. I get it. They have a gene I don't. That's all I said. Good for them. Having to stop and heave for air with literally every step is not fun to me, suffering is suffering, and it doesn't interest me. Get over it.

6. Sport climbing is great. Put it at 20,000 feet and IN MY OPINION it ceases to be fun. Even sitting in an altitude chamber @ 20,000 feet trying to add two numbers sucks.

7. I agree; that's one reason I like fast, tight, jibes. They're like the rest of my reach except they cover 180 rather than 90 degrees.

8. Great; I never said it wasn't enjoyable, just that it doesn't fullfil me.

You say "as usual" I am off. Well, as usual, people read stuff I never posted.


1. Well I reread it again (it was bad enough the first time). I don't see the word PRACTICE anywhere in your post. Because once again YOU don't get it. There is no practice in freestyle. Freestyle IS sailing. Learning new stuff on a windsurfing board IS sailing. You don't get it and never will.

Let's look at "MIke's Sailing". Since you have made tens of thousands of jibes (your words), that would be EXTREMELY boring. Doing the same thing over and over tens of thousands of times??? Really? And you call that fun? Try learning something new. Like the first time you learned to plane, the first time you made a jibe.

3. So you use one or a couple of people out sailing as an example of all freestylers? If that was the case I could pick a couple of people out windsurfing who can't even waterstart. I could use that as an example of all windsurfers except of course it wouldn't be accurate. And if they are having fun doing what they want, who are you to put them down for it???

4. It doesn't cut any precious time. If they are out having fun doing something they enjoy, how is that cutting their time? If it was light wind and I had a choice of being on a 8.5 and planing, or out on a beginner board using a small sail working on sail handling, I would choose the later anytime. But that is my choice. I would not put down people sailing on large sails. (also learning on a beginner board with a small sail is the BEST way to learn new sail handling).

6. You once again change everything so that it suits your point of view. I NEVER said sport climbing at 20k. I said sport climbing is more akin to freestyle windsurfing since your example of comparing mountain climbing to freestyle sailing was ridiculous at best..

Yep somebody recently mentioned you putting stuff down that you don't agree with and once again you do it. The one neat thing about windsurfing is that it is pretty much open ended. You can continue to evolve and try new stuff. Challenging yourself. This is what attracts most people to windsurfing. But Mike lives in a box without any windows so he can't see anything else. He blasts the B&F sailors because they aren't "slashing turns", then he slams freestyle sailors. Yet he continues to do the same thing over and over tens of thousands of times.

Rock on Mike, you are a legend in your own mind..... Rolling Eyes
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drysuit2



Joined: 01 Apr 1997
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Over 11,500 posts says it all.
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