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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13808

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

westender wrote:
for success, even the most powerful athletic maneuvers should be done with grace and balance.

Yup. But that doesn't preclude speed.
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 522

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finally, an old-style isobars back-and-forth again! I almost missed those, they have been rare recently.

Despite the apparent disagreements between PP and iso, I agree with both of them - it just depends on conditions. PP is absolutely right about slow, smooth movements when learning the jibe. At least for those of us not living near the Gorge or SF, that's typically done in lighter winds with bigger gear and flat-ish water. In these conditions, slow is fast. Period. This also is true in very strong winds if the water is very flat.

But in typical 25-30+ conditions with big chop, the same slow approach often does not work well, at least for me. More aggressive carves often work better, for example to fit the jibe in between 2 swells. Most or all jibe lecture videos point out that the oversheeting can and should be much more aggressive in stronger winds, with the mast tip getting closer to the water. Dasher shows some very nice examples. Getting the mast leaning in and the power out of the sail will give a much smoother turn than keeping the sail open and partly powered.

So, back to the original question: focus on leaving the front arm extended to lean the mast into the curve, and on pulling the sail in with the back hand. Get the sail out of your vision. Try to exaggerate the movement. Yes, push with the front hand and pull with the back hand. Once you get yourself and the rig into the right position, you'll see how smooth the ride suddenly becomes.
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1140
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think outside the box. In normal chop or river swell nobody says you have to fit a jibe between swells. On smaller swell like at Viento, Hood River, Mosier, or Rowena (to name a few Gorge locations) you just accelerate on a broad reach or DDW up the back of the second swell then accelerate down the face of the second swell still on a plane. I plane through 95% of my jibes this way and the ones I don't take very little work to get going again. Also works well for the Oregon side of the Hatch. But for big swell I would just ride the swell.

BUT remember those asking jibe advice are not out at the Hatch, The Wall, Rufus or any similar place. They are most likely on smaller chop/swell like all were when we were learning...
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13808

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, like heartland lakes, such as New Mexico's Cochiti, Morgan, Conchas, Carlsbad, Heron, and Elephant Butte? Utah's Pineview, Deer Creek, Yuba, Willard Bay, plus unnamed farm ponds and a motel pool? Cody, Wyoming's Buffalo Bill Reservoir and the local bar ditch? Texas's Meredith and many local lakes and ponds from Dallas to El Paso? Iowa's Rathbun and Saylorville? Colorado's Pueblo and Cherry Creek? Downtown Tucson's Reid Park pond ... to name a few of the places at which my first several thousand jibe attempts were made?

This isn't about the Hatchery, or the Columbia, or the Columbia Bar; it's about jibing in the real world, where the water may be flat in one spot and at one hour, yet knee/waist/chest high two hours later or 200 yards away. Not all of us are fortunate enough to have learned to WS on the CA coast, the Columbia, Bird Island, or Pimlico; the rest of us gotta make do with and learn on whatever lies 100 feet off our bow when we start to carve, and if we refuse to try 'cause it's choppy that day or that reach, our learning curve may exceed our life span. My retired 50-something bud who hasn't even tried a jibe yet after years of sailing the Columbia is probably never going to plane through a jibe, largely because he lacks your aggressive sports attitude and inherent ability.

I see hundreds of porpoising stall jibes every single windy day, made by choice hour after hour and year after year by people who believe that's what jibing's all about, with every little calf-high bump encouraging the porpoise. I see posters describing that as the way to jibe, as though ripping one off is beyond their mortal reach. I tried that crap for many years with my first 5 or 6 boards, failed at it, gave up on it, and began to plane through jibes only when I took the face to face advice of everybody from "Monty" to Alan Cadiz and Cort Larned plus many magazine How To tutorials: in essence, collectively, Git On It, Guy!. Quit pussyfooting into it, stalling at 90 degrees, and waiting for help. A planing jibe is a committed, even aggressive, maneuver, not a passive dance step. YOU, not momentum, should lead this dance.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1203

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
Quit pussyfooting into it, stalling at 90 degrees, and waiting for help. A planing jibe is a committed, even aggressive, maneuver, not a passive dance step. YOU, not momentum, should lead this dance.[/


I counter: Don't confuse ham handed muscling the gear with commitment. A planing jibe is a committed, balanced, nuanced manuever. It's a dance, not a wrestling match.

Also, to plane through jibes when you're not overpowered, or in lulls, you're going to need subtle control skills. Moving aggressively is a great way to fall off the plane.

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http://www.peconicpuffin.com
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13808

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here we go again with people falling back on baseless ad hominem when and because their argument’s fundamental merits are lacking. I had hoped that after 20 years, you’d learned how transparent that ploy is.
PeconicPuffin wrote:
isobars wrote:
For the OP's benefit, nothing you (PP) has said changes anything I've said.

Sure it does.

We disagree.

PeconicPuffin wrote:
For the OP's benefit,

How does your following lie benefit the OP?

PeconicPuffin wrote:
any technique or move or choice you can't do, you denigrate (broad jibes, freestyle, early planing).

Show us ONE instance of that in my last 20,000 or so posts. (Tip: a joke, especially with a smiley, doesn’t count.)

PeconicPuffin wrote:
There are twenty years of you doing this online as evidence.

So why can’t you show us even one?

Now that the crickets have stopped chirping, can we get back to the thread’s topic?
PeconicPuffin wrote:
Secondly, you are always championing Aggression and physicality

Sure am, under appropriate circumstances, just as do many in this forum (see boardsurfr above) do, as Cadiz and Larned said to my face, and as many magazine tutorials did. Hell, Panebianco advocated what looked like bear-wrestling in his overpowered-jibing WSmag article a few years back, certainly many intermediates try jibing in what they consider overpowered moments, and the OPTIONAL modifications I made AT LARNED’S (and my friend Monte’s) ADVICE turn Jace’s bear-wrestling into an effortless waltz. While he's working so hard that his mast is bent dramatically, my rig is spinning freely in a vacuum, untouched.

PeconicPuffin wrote:
when most everyone working on jibes would do much better if they were less physical and more measured

But how about the legions who are getting nowhere with that because they are TOO “measured”? After all, both “aggression” and "measured" are relative terms ... maybe even the heart of our disagreement. Check out this appreciative message I received recently:
“After 30 years of windsurfing and 10,000+ jibes too with a very few ever coming out fully planing, I recently figured out that I had to finally stop doing step jibes and learn to do the planing (surfing) jibe.

Several months ago when searching for a good description of how to actually do a planing jibe I found [your] write up on the Throw, Throw, Grab and Go technique. It was so much more detailed in actually how to do it than anything else I had ever read. It also really made much more sense to me as I could visualize it all happening.

So I set out to give it a try and have now made a huge improvement on my ability to jibe without switching my feet first and to get that sail around quickly. Although I have not yet come out fully planing I am starting to have a much greater success rate in completing jibes in general and am even coming out of some of them almost planing. [I’m now]concentrating on knees bent, hips thrust in, and using the bow & arrow technique; keeping the board surfing all the way through the turn ... speed has greatly improved.

Anyway, your well written step by step description of the whole process was a huge help and a monumental change to years of step jibing habit that never worked too well for me when really powered up in high wind ocean and B&J sailing. I just wish I would have discovered this years ago. Anyway thanks and I will be continuing to practice this.”

Two illustrative points he made relevant to this thread:
1. That he’s been trying unsuccessfully for 30 years implies too much measuring and not enough Git’n ‘Er Done.
2. He’s improving rapidly now, apparently assisted by less measuring and more doing.

PeconicPuffin wrote:
which is why ever single windsurfing instructional program out there teaches it.

Now we’re getting into semantics. I doubt* any modern programs advise “eating lunch” during a jibe, as I described only slightly tongue-in-cheek above and see by the hundreds every windy day on the Columbia. Tiptoeing downwind and around the bend until the board slows down and turns enough that the wind jibes the sail may be the only way to jibe giant sails, but for 7.5 and down that’s not necessary and promotes porpoising and losing the plane.

* But I could be wrong, given that one of the gurus (Dasher or Tinho, IIRC) taught straight-legged jibing because it works on flat water. Talk about a bad habit!

PeconicPuffin wrote:
You like to portray yourself as an expert

I don’t (wittingly) “portray” anything. I present facts, logic, opinions, ideas, options, and alternatives for others’ consideration and sometimes support them with same from my own experience. In fact, I’ve very often stated that by many measures I am definitely NOT an expert. I sail for fun, not for a label.

PeconicPuffin wrote:
any review of what you've posted has you as an inefficient high wind intermediate.

Yet many people say my posts about my sailing, posted for stoke and/or illustration, are not only “wild boasts” but outright lies? Which do my posts "portray" ... intermediate or out of reach of the average recreational sailor? I sail for the pleasure of only one person, and it sure ain’t any of youse guys. If the fact that I can’t do a monkey-handed naked flopalooza hooked into 40” lines in a foot of water makes me a novice, then novice it is. At least I call a faceplant a faceplant, rather than a “gecko loop”. (See the Puffin do the “gecko loop” at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=GLJ_rEzuO2U )

As for efficiency, I’ve discussed the MANY advantages MANY times of rigging bigger than do most people my size. That’s a skill and a choice I love, as do many of the Gorge’s very best sailors. If I’m “inefficient”, a) so be it, and b) Cook and Peterson are a meter or two even more “inefficient” than I. Some day you may grow a pair, try rigging “right”, see what you’ve been missing, slap your forehead hard enough to dent even it, and realize that slogging while others are shreddin’ sucks.

PeconicPuffin wrote:
Someone working on jibing sailing a 6.0 on a 110 liter board, for example, is going to get nowhere trying to learn by attempting tight high speed jibes.

Funny you should pick 110 liters and 6 meters. You’re describing the combination of 110 liter Bailey, 6.8 L twin-cam World sail, and technique which were a big part of my early jibing progress at many inland and Gorge lakes. Some of us just don’t possess the skill, balance, terrain, desire, and/or real-time or years of patience to putz around corners cracking oysters on our chests.

I parry: PeconicPuffin wrote:
Don't confuse ham handed muscling the gear with commitment. A planing jibe is a committed, balanced, nuanced manuever. It's a dance, not a wrestling match.
Also, to plane through jibes when you're not overpowered, or in lulls, you're going to need subtle control skills. Moving aggressively is a great way to fall off the plane.

I fully agree, but don’t confuse “Git’n ‘Er Done” with wrestling (it’s just the opposite) or assume that my technique fails when I’m barely planing or even slogging. One just has to tailor the level of aggression/commitment/movement speed to each jibe’s conditions. Throw a hip too far into a slow jibe and that lee rail will plow. However, spinning the sail very aggressively very significantly boosts a slow jibe, in several ways.

I’m not trying to say my approach is the only way to jibe, even though it is derived largely from what jibing guru Cort Larned taught me about 25 years ago. I AM saying that “eating lunch” while jibing is not the only way to jibe, and that (as any accomplished jock from the Bolshoi to Marvin Gardens [ Laughing correction: Madison Square Garden] knows) finesse, balance, smoothness, grace, form, and technique do not preclude or conflict with speed or Git’n ‘Er Done.


Last edited by isobars on Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1309

PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really Puffin.

"If you prick us do we not bleed?"

Did you have to go to such lengths to rile the world famous Isobars merely to demonstrate your assertion that he is "an awesome typist!" ?

On the other hand, and purely from a personal point of view, your calculated mischief certainly triggered the second part of the quote, namely....

"If you tickle us do we not laugh?" Laughing Laughing Laughing
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1442

PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I gave up reading the above, so here is my observation of the issues confronting new gybers.

Since novice/intermediates are just getting used to the straps and planing speed, they are not comfortable maintaining enough speed to do a planing gybe, so they can't do a decent carve (not enough speed) and end up on a dead downwind bobble getting no where and falling in.

Both tight and wide carving gybes need speed plus a commitment to keep the pressure on the leeward rail with the back foot to keep the board carving. It's easy to start the carve with good foot pressure on the rail, but many back off half way through and end with the downwind bobble, usually because they don't sheet in the sail.

More speed is likely the result of more wind which equals more chop which equals less comfort. So I think the secret beyond the required techniques mention above is comfort at speed in chop, with no fear of bearing off knowing that you will pick up even more speed to initiate the gybe. This takes time on the water. The more aggressive your nature, the quicker you become comfortable at speed and the quicker you learn to do carving gybes.

I have to admit that a few times a year when it's blowing 30-40 mph, I have chickened out at initiating a gybe because of toooo much speed and bounce, and then waited for a lull to regain my wits and make the turn. At some point, it gets scary for ALL of us.

For what it's worth.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13808

PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
carving gybes need speed plus a commitment ...

Yup ... aka aggression, if that helps aspiring jibers internalize what's necessary. The terms refer to the mindset change from beam reaching ... i.e., sailing ... to jibing ... i.e., turning around. In reaching, they focus on what lies along the beam reach path they will follow, balancing all the many forces as necessary to follow that straight line. Their loooooong, drawn-out, barely rounded turns look and feel more like reaching than jibing partly because their commitment is to "not falling" rather than to turning around. IOW, mentally they are still windsurfing, not jibing.

That's gotta change if they want to succeed. Their commitment focus needs to change from "not falling" to "jibing", which involves a total change in focus, attitude and balance. Their focus should no longer on be on where their board is pointed right now, but instead needs to be inside that ever-changing line to where they want it to be pointing as they exit the jibe. That's part of Jibing 101, and it requires some degree of aggression above and beyond staying dry in a straight line.

Their attitude needs to change from "Never fall" to "turn the damned thing around". Achieve the latter consistently and the former will follow; don't do the latter, and you'll never jibe. It's just like Rule #1 in learning to waterstart is "keep the board pointing off the wind"; do that, and getting to your feet will follow at some point. Don't do it, and you aren't going to learn how to waterstart.

One's balance needs to change, as decreed by physics. Balancing our COE and CLR keeps us going straight; offsetting them produces a turn. Changing that balance usually requires changing OUR balance, and in a jibe we need to move our pressure on the board leeward and forward to engage the rail, initiate the carve, and keep the nose from porpoising over bumps.

Each and every part of that process involves -- I'd say requires -- changing our top priority from "don't fall" to "turn". That requires commitment, which many timid sailors (and instructors) would call aggression.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1203

PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
Really Puffin.

"If you prick us do we not bleed?"

Did you have to go to such lengths to rile the world famous Isobars merely to demonstrate your assertion that he is "an awesome typist!" ?

On the other hand, and purely from a personal point of view, your calculated mischief certainly triggered the second part of the quote, namely....

"If you tickle us do we not laugh?" Laughing Laughing Laughing


I apologize. I've been spending less time here, and while I certainly knew there would be a response, I genuinely wasn't anticipating all that typing. I've gotten rusty.

_________________
Michael
http://www.peconicpuffin.com
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