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Fin choice and overpowered upwind issues
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adywind



Joined: 08 Jan 2012
Posts: 210

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:42 pm    Post subject: Fin choice and overpowered upwind issues Reply with quote

Here is the weird thing: I ordered a race fin but I've got a Liquid Pro by a dealer mistake and I cant decide to keep it or return it.
Now the background of the story: I have a hard time going upwind when overpowered on my JP SS 79. Sheeting in usually results in launching uncontrollably downwind and sheeting out in stalling the board. What I usually do is starting big and if the wind increases I tune the sail until its maxed out. With the huge wind range of the today's 7 batten sails and espatialy with switching to the lower clew I rarely have to downsize . Since I don't change the fin / the original cheapo JP Race 50cm/ I blame my unsatisfactory upwind performance on it for being to big and draggy for the conditions . I'm not saying I can't go upwind at all, I do but not as much as I would like to. Guys with smaller sails and boards go better upwind at this point.
Back to the Liquid Pro 50cm. Do you think it could be an acceptable compromise between two sizes race fins and won't need to switch to a smaller or bigger fin ? In wich case ill be happy to keep it/ the price is the same /.
And do you think the fin is the reason for my overpowered upwind issues in the first place?
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2377

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like stock fin goes upwind better. Acc fin is smoother, more rangy, jibes better.
Your clue...small boards and smaller sails go upwind better. ...with other sailors as the pilot.
You need to work on your compromise, not too sheeted in, not too sheeted out.
Since you didn't mention windspeed, we have no clue as to the wind conditions.
If you're not planing, SLOG upwind. It is the only way.
If you are planing, load the harness lines, unload the front foot, load the rear strap slightly, lean forwards, rail up the windward rail, and enjoy the ride upwind.
You sound like a novice on his first short board. refusing to see what other's are doing to get upwind, and trying to reinvent the sport.
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adywind



Joined: 08 Jan 2012
Posts: 210

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, here is an example. Two days ago I was with a 8.5 cambered sail in a 18 to 25 mph wind. I didn't anticipate it picking this much up and didn't bring anything smaller with me. It started getting quite choppy and with the sail maxed out I was pretty rough and resulting in some blown gybes and even tacks. A local guy came with a 7.5 and 120 FSW and was able to go upwind to a spot with a lot flatter water while I was just hanging there going on reach in the heavy chop. It was fun anyway but the puzzle annoys me.
Well I actually was going upwind some because the launch is a very tight spot and if I get blown too much downwind ill have to walk for hours. I just couldn't go as high upwind as the guy with the smaller gear - it would have taken too much time and effort.
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2377

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read my paragraph on upwind again. That is how you do it.
Formula guys use that technique also, and they're riding 10 meter sails sometimes in Berkeley's "18-25mph" winds.
You do know you have to slow down to go upwind, right? Like, broad reaching boatspeeds around 27, across the wind boatspeeds around 25, and upwind boatspeeds 17.
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 1933
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless you are properly tuned, an 8.5 anything is likely to be a handful above 20 knots, more so with chop. The following assumes you are fairly balanced and comfortable at 18 knots.

If sheeting in shoots you downwind when really powered up, it's likely your settings are wrong for the fin. I suspect you could move your mast base back and raise your booms a tad and keep the same fin, but your balance points will be closer together because your fin suddenly powers up and pushes the nose down while your rearward settings will lift the nose. A bit of balancing on the head of a pin, but it can be fast.

I don't wish to criticize the stock fin, but dropping coin on a serious racing fin will do wonders for your balance and comfort. The foils on these fins are far more precise and thus give power in a predictable way. They power up evenly and handle chop way better than stock. I'm not suggesting getting a small FW fin, but a large slalom race fin? 50cm is about right for your board. You might want to contact Micah Buzianis @ Maui Sails -he should be familiar with the exact fins for this board and probably has a stash he will unload for reasonable money.

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d0uglass



Joined: 28 May 2004
Posts: 1073
Location: Bonita Springs, Florida

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Riding the fin" upwind is one of the toughest things to do well on a shortboard. Very dependent on tuning, technique, and practice.

Dan has a good point that you might simply be too overpowered to sail normally.

Here's a couple other things you might try, if you haven't already...

*Make sure your harness lines are far enough back that they automatically sheet the sail in fully when you're in the footstraps and hooked in. You should almost never have to sheet in with your back hand when you're in the harness.
*In an overpowering gust you can stay sheeted in by pushing the boom away from you with your front hand while remaining hooked into the harness.
*Harness lines close together will help the sail respond to gusts, although with 7.5 and larger sails you may want them about a hand's width apart rather than right next to each other.
*Long enough harness lines that you're not getting pulled off balance- especially if you're using a seat harness.
*Footstraps may not be far enough outboard and tight enough to give proper leverage.
*May have too much outhaul but not enough downhaul, which will make the sail "twitchy."
*Mast base may be too far forward. Try middle of track or further back.

In terms of the fin, normally if you wanted more control you would go smaller and if you wanted more upwind you would go bigger... It's hard to get both. But one thing that might fix both your problems would be to try a fin that is a bit shorter and stiffer (for more control) but also has a thicker foil (for more upwind power and grip). True Ames makes one called the "sweeper" that would fit the bill. Maybe the 45 cm size. I don't think the Liquid Pro is going to feel very different from the stock fin.

PS- What make and model of sail are you using? Skinny or standard mast?

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adywind



Joined: 08 Jan 2012
Posts: 210

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hm, i do everything you've suggested so far, except that I didn't put the mast foot on 1/3 in the mast track but on 3/4 wich I didn't like and then on 1/2. I was afraid that it will get too bouncy on 1/3 and I was barely in controll already . So probably I'm with the wrong kit in the wrong conditions, heavy chop espatialy. This doesn't happen on flat water -like in samall lake. It happens only in the freaking Lake Michigan.
Still I'm inclined at least to try the Lyquid Pro first, because I still think that the original is too thick and slows the board down when every kn counts for staying on the plane or not. I hope this weekends forecast stays when 10-20mph wind will be perfect for this kit.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5774

PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just curious. You originally said that you ordered a MFC racing fin. Which one did you want? The KP-RC or the RC2? Either one of these models will give you better upwind drive than the Liquid Pro.
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adywind



Joined: 08 Jan 2012
Posts: 210

PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
Just curious. You originally said that you ordered a MFC racing fin. Which one did you want? The KP-RC or the RC2? Either one of these models will give you better upwind drive than the Liquid Pro.

The KP-RC. And which one do you think will be faster /less drag/ and more agile / easier changing direction without slowing down too much - like to be able to exit the gybe still planing/ ? And do you think the LP may spin out too much? Ill be able to put it to the test no earlier then Sunday.
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d0uglass



Joined: 28 May 2004
Posts: 1073
Location: Bonita Springs, Florida

PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adywind wrote:
Hm, i do everything you've suggested so far, except that I didn't put the mast foot on 1/3 in the mast track but on 3/4 wich I didn't like and then on 1/2. I was afraid that it will get too bouncy on 1/3 and I was barely in controll already.


Hmm. There's different kinds of out of control, and I don't think mast track forward is always the cure. In fact, if I'm bouncing hard in the chop when riding a wide board, I often find that moving the mast track *back* greatly improves control. It allows the nose to ride higher so the board "hovers over" the chop instead of whacking into it. Less surface area of the board in contact with the water can also make it faster.

As far as I understand, mast track back only becomes a control problem when you can no longer maintain enough mast base pressure to keep the nose from "tailwalking" like this guy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQa9oPUaPWc

You should try mast track way back and see what happens. Wink

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