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jingebritsen



Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 2426

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhmark, try it for yourself. raise the boom. back hand have to work harder, yet going faster in lighter air? try lines back a bit further. balanced and planing earlier? what's not to like about that?
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walkingman



Joined: 17 Nov 2009
Posts: 26
Location: West Seattle

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great feedback folks. I feel like I've got a pretty good pair of boards in the Ultra Cat and Rocket. The Cat was an upgrade from a Mistral Comp, my very first board, that i just gave away a week ago. Greg you're right, on Puget Sound the longboard is the goto. Until I moved to West Seattle this spring, I usually had to negotiate funky currents and wind patterns to get out into clear air, then schlog back through the same to get back to my beach if the wind didn't die (which it frequently did). Now I'm fortunate to be on a beach where the winds are clean side shore or side-onshore with fairly organized waves instead of bad chop. Now I can reach straight out from the beach in both northerlies and southerlies. It's been great this year for skill building. I've learned more in the beginning of this season than the prior three combined, and I'm pretty sure it's because of better and more consistent sailing conditions where I live now. I'm pretty sure that I'll get through water starting this year (crossing fingers) as well as attempting the Rocket.

So, yeah, on that last catapulting, I was on my way back to the beach with dead arms after 2 1/2 hours of sailing, but still experimenting with how much I could pinch upwind with the CB up when the big gust hit. I hadn't really done much broad reaching up to that point, but it was plain to see that the board had lots more legs and throttle. I mainly hadn't figured out the ideal body position for that speed and point of sail since the back of the board was still unexplored territory. Next time I go out, I'll for sure play with full throttle while I'm fresh! I'm really excited to try some of the recommendations that have been posted here. I appreciate everybody's comments! ~Steve

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jingebritsen



Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 2426

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gregnw44 great defense of race boards. my only argument is with this statement: A raceboard like Steve's, has the widest usable wind-range of any design. And they're not slow... I've gone 30 mph on mine several times.
However it's work to sail them in gusty winds from 20 - 30. A fun shortboard is easier then.

sheet home, command that kit like it's yours to control, and it is so much fun when really lit. remember, extreme angles up and down wind help control as much as having a no fear attitude.

catapults come from the sail saying, "come on, let's go." and the sailor or board saying, "let's not." trick is to command the power, use it. don't choke it. all about balancing the forces that one has at hand.

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walkingman



Joined: 17 Nov 2009
Posts: 26
Location: West Seattle

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds great, J. What do you mean by extreme angles (upwind and downwind)? Body position? Sheeting angles? point of sail? ~S
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d0uglass



Joined: 28 May 2004
Posts: 1083
Location: Bonita Springs, Florida

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Walkingman-

To windsurf on a straight and stable heading, you need the "center of effort" (COE) of the sail to line up with the "center of lateral resistance" (CLR) of the board.

When the daggerboard is down on a longboard, the CLR is pretty far forward, around the daggerboard, so you lean the sail forward and/or put the mast track forward to match the COE to the CLR.

When you kick the daggerboard up, the CLR moves back, so you slide the mast track back and/or lean the sail back to move the COE back, too. However, I imagine that when you're not using the daggerboard you dig in your heels to tilt the board to windward. That actually keeps the CLR pretty far forward.

When you get a big gust that gets you truly planing, it rears the nose up out of the water, and lightens you on your heels, suddenly moving the CLR way back to the fin, which is now providing more lateral resistance than usual because the water is flowing around it faster. That's a good thing- if you're ready for it. It sounds like you weren't ready for it, and suddenly found your sail's COE far forward of the CLR, causing you to bear off downwind and accelerate out of control until you catapulted.

There's a couple things that you can do to stay in that super high speed mode with more control, and even to enter that mode in less wind. (BTW, that mode is called fully-planing, or "riding the fin.")

1. If you're always digging in your heels, the board is not going to "release" from the water enough to truly plane, even when you sheet in really hard. On a longboard you can still "slice" through the water pretty fast in this mode, but you're not truly planing.
2. In a bit less wind, try flattening out the board by pointing your toes and committing your weight to the rig, then gradually bear off the wind by "pushing" the boom and your front leg to push the nose downwind. Rake the sail back as you accelerate, but don't sheet in prematurely. You'll need the mast track as far back as possible. Hopefully this will accelerate you into fully planing.
3. A somewhat bigger fin (35-40 cm) may help you keep the board trimmed flatter and enable you to enter the fully planing mode earlier.
4. Fully planing on the longboard may be tricky with the Retro because of the way the Retro is "cut." The Retro is cut for a shortboard, where the mast track is closer to the footstraps and the mast isn't raked back as much when planing as it would be on a longboard. That's means the Retro has a "forward center of effort" and a "low foot" to close the gap between the bottom of the sail and the deck of the board. Those features make it awkward to bring the COE of the Retro far enough back to line up with the fin on a longboard.

I've got some GoPro camera videos that show the differences in board trim when riding a longboard with the daggerboard down (railed to leeward) versus daggerboard up and planing (trimmed flat).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYUQKBO1A68

http://vimeo.com/27078930

-James

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walkingman



Joined: 17 Nov 2009
Posts: 26
Location: West Seattle

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of good info, James. I watched your Pandera vid a bunch in the past. Partly, because it came up when I searched for vids on Mistral longboards when i had a Mistral Competition. I'm currently using a 35 cm straight fin that I pulled off of an old fanatic ultra boa. I had heard that it's dicey to go much longer if it's a US box that may be more prone to breakage than a more modern through board box.

The COE/CLR balance concept all makes sense and I'm comfortable switching back and forth between reaching and beating with and without the centerboard. My usual goal is to keep the board as flat as possible when on a straight run. When driving on the fin only, I've learned to steer using the "heel-toe" technique to which the Cat responds really well with pretty quick s-turns when going 10-15 mph+. I haven't experimented much yet with alternating foot pressure as you suggested. I'll definitely try your suggestions for planing in less wind.

I noticed in your Pandera vid that your board is very level and that you get a pretty smooth exit wake. This is consistent with the Mistral Comp that I used to have. The cat however, seems to ride much lower aft even when it "feels" balanced. I wondered if this is because the cat is narrower towards the tail, or if I should work harder at being a little less heavy footed as I move aft? Commit more to the rig? Not sure. ~Steve

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d0uglass



Joined: 28 May 2004
Posts: 1083
Location: Bonita Springs, Florida

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

35 cm is probably perfect for the fin on a narrow-tailed longboard with a 7.0.

Committing to the rig and applying massive tons of "mast base pressure" is definitely important- both for getting planing without sinking the tail, and for keeping the board under control when you really start to blast. High boom like Ingebritsen mentioned will help you "hang" your weight on the rig like you need to to keep your feet light.

I had one of the earlier generation Fanatic Cat boards for a while and I wasn't crazy about it. Thin and narrow in the tail so it took a lot to get it fully planing. Plus the back of the mast base was way forward of the footstraps so it was always an awkward contortion to get both feet in the straps and keep them there.

If you can get your hands on a Kona ONE, that's a better longboard for being able to plane easily and ride comfortably with modern sails. Doesn't "slice" quite as well as a Cat or a Competition in daggerboard-down mode, but think the tradeoff is worth it.

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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 246

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jingeB - Thanks. And... I think we're totally agreeing on the versatility of high performance longboards Smile
And you're right about "keepin' the hammer down" to increase control, when fully powered up.
I was just saying, that in 20-30 mph winds, a 12' board is A LOT to control. In those winds the water texture is crazy... and when really lit, I only have 3 - 4' of the board touching the water. 8 - 9' feet of it, is out of the water. Flyin' over big chop is crazy in that mode (fun... but crazy Smile
Was just saying, that in those conditions... a shortboard is easier to control and sail.
Greg Smile
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 246

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JamesD... Great stuff !!!
How much do you weigh?
I don't think you're a heavyweight. I'm 200 lbs. I bet you're closer to Steve. He's around 170 if I recall.
Anyway, your advice about hanging weight from the boom... and railing the board... and flattening the board at other times by pressing with your toes... is of course, all perfect !!
The weight thing is worth mentioning, cause it makes a big difference in lighter winds. How far someone can step back... when to retract the centerboard... etc. Bigger guys leave the CB down longer... AND leave the mast-track up farther, compared to lighter guys. At least I do. It gives a bigger guy much more stability, and keeps the board flat. And it is not slow for me in racing lightwinds with lighter guys.
I have to be going way faster than a 170# guy does, to have the track back and CB retracted.
Anyway, I think "that" should be mentioned, when giving advice to newer sailors. Finding out their weight in helpful.
I've also seen your longboarding in the Gorge vid many times. But hadn't seen the Equipe vid before... GREAT Smile
Question - What's the history on that Equipe? Was just wondering if you got it some years ago, from someone in WA... maybe the greater Seattle area?

And Steve - Yes, the earlier Ultra Cats were thinner in the tail. The 1st generation Equipe's were the same way. All the late 80's raceboards were like that. They were fast and controllable in high winds and big chop. The later Mega Cats were wider throughout. All the early 90's (and later) raceboards followed the Bic Bamba in this design, of being a bit wider and more volume. The width throughout and the vol would increase every 3 - 4 years. Equipe, Mega Cats, F2 Lightnings, and the rest all evolved the same way.
These raceboards would plane at lower wind speeds... but, they were more of a handful at very high speeds. But for a bigger guy like me sailing usually in lighter winds... the bigger vol boards are the best answer. Lighter guys have a choice.
James' Equipe is a newer one... and 258L if I recall, and width similar to my 249L Lightning.
I'm just sayin' that if you two are the same weight... you can't totally copy his moves in the same marginal wind speeds. Because his board will support his weight back there at a lower speed than your board will.
Greg Smile
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 246

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh... and Steve... I don't know where in W. Seattle you're living. But from your description, it sounds GREAT !!!

You'll have to invite me over sometime this summer, to go sailing with you... free coaching tips, no charge, LOL

Greg -
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