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Pipe dream? Obamacare
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3572
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Federal immigration law says that unlawful presence in the country is a civil offense and is, therefore, not a crime.

Mr Gybe, if you read your link, and many others on the same subject , or speak to someone in the field, you will conclude that the vast majority of Obama's deportations are criminals, and those associated with criminals.

Undocumented immigrants pay taxes, and lead regular lives, and for that they wont get deported. We dont raid houses, we dont randomly profile(AZ excluded), and we dont randomly deport.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1952

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

O.K. So, we will use the term "undocumented worker" once a "removable alien" finds a job after crossing the border using methods which violate "civil law".

Now, should we provide tax supported health care for these folks?

The above statement was not meant to discriminate against any individual due to his or her race, country of origin, religion, or politial affiliation.


Last edited by coboardhead on Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2673

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boggs, That does mean someone here illegally "can stay"........of course they can't and they can't avoid the penalty any more than you can plead with the traffic court that you shouldn't be fined because everyone speeds. BTW, obtaining a fake SS# is a crime. Obtaining a fake drivers license is a crime. Obtaining other fake ID papers is a crime. It is also a felony to re-enter the US after having been legally removed. You may wish to read the linked article also..........roughly half of the recent deportees had no criminal conviction..........it was two thirds in 2008.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3572
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We can agree to disagree. I have never seen or heard of a law abiding undocumented immigrant being deported randomly, or as a result of discovery. If not committing the crime, it was an associate of the criminal, that is what usually makes up the "non-criminal" segment of the deported. From my perch in Northern California, in a town /county that is half hispanic, it certainly appears that law abiding undocumented immigrants can stay. And I am fine with it, they are my friends.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14233

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
This reminds of a regional issue here. We were told not to call Native Americans "indians". Fine. I get that...they are not Indians. So, now we are to use the term "Indigenous Peoples of North America".

I'm gonna start giving a slight hoot -- or war cry -- when the Bureau of Indian Affairs changes its name to the Bureau of Indigenous Peoples of North America Affairs. Until then, the PC police can put a moccasin in it.

Besides, what is an "Indian" anyway, given ...
http://goarchie.com/aashid/BeforeIndians.html ?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14233

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
The above statement was not meant to discriminate against any individual due to his or her race, country of origin, religion, or politial affiliation.

Yeah, but of course you're still a lying racist homophobic misogynist to mac.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3572
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
O.K. So, we will use the term "undocumented worker" once a "removable alien" finds a job after crossing the border using methods which violate "civil law".

Now, should we provide tax supported health care for these folks?

The above statement was not meant to discriminate against any individual due to his or her race, country of origin, religion, or politial affiliation.

CB, I say yes. The net of this immigration is positve, financially. Milton Friedman is one of my heroes , the true free market man. Immigration is flowing to fill a need in our free market, labor. It results in profit margins, and economic multipliers, thus a net net. I wish some of the righty's here would get on board the opinion of their bible, The Wall Street Journal which looks at immigration economically, not Xenophobically.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5256

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CB--I was puzzled by your question, since I couldn't find a place where I had misspelled immigrant. But I love the tenor of this discussion--the conservatives--especially the angry little hater from Virginia--are painting themselves further and further into a corner. The anger and barely hidden racism is killing their party, and rather than take a moment for introspection they just continue to lash out and offend people. So what do I find offensive, and where does this all go?

First, I find the moral superiority of comments like "of course they can't stay" offensive. Particularly given the ramping up of enforcement during the Obama administration. For the Obama haters, nothing he does will ever be enough, and they will spend their angry lives looking for things that they can describe as lies rather than for solutions. There are millions of offenses of minor and major legal significance that are committed each day that go unpunished. People routinely run the stop sign in front of the school in my neighborhood--often at speeds over 30 miles an hour--without enforcement. For each level of government, enforcement is a matter of selecting priorities, the public's willingness to pay for the resources, the backlash from supporters of "illegal immigrants" and red light runners, etc. With an estimated 11 to 12 million undocumented workers in this country at the peak, it is obvious that the public has no stomach for ramping up enforcement levels to the point of expelling them all. Indeed, there is strong public support for creating a path towards citizenship--a viewpoint I endorse. Of course much of the right spends their energy avoiding facts and protecting their belief-based views from such facts.

To be a little more explicit, the insistence of the term "illegal" communicates a meta-message of moral superiority and disapproval. We use no such term for code violating scoff-laws who remodel their house(s) without permits. It is sad indeed that some of these righties have no better way to feel superior to people who have come to this country without papers, and work in the margins of the economy, often in stunning poverty, than to rant in this way. I don't know if there is a form of treatment for empathy deficit disorder--but I'd contribute to a mental health tax for such treatment.

Second, the incessant attacks on the immigrants themselves largely leave blameless the businesses who hire immigrants without checking their status, and the politicians, most notably Ronald Reagan, who created the system in the first place. The current network of immigration law and regulation was part of a Republican strategy to undermine the political power and effectiveness of the agricultural labor movement. It has succeeded in ways that have lowered the labor costs for agriculture--yet disapproval is reserved only for those so poor that they are willing to work for those wages. The unintended consequence is that the more entrepeneurial of the seasonal immigrants who were here legally, stayed and started businesses. Somehow the vaunted support of the right for small businesses disappears when it comes to those with Hispanic names.

Third, I am offended by the callous assumptions that these "illegal" immigrants are only a net drain on the cost of government services, and particularly medical services. Indeed, many of them pay taxes--and if they are using artificial social security numbers, they get no return. It was already answered early on that they are a much smaller part of emergency room care than citizens without medical insurance.

But I applaud the tone-deafness of the right. I listened to this kind of crap on talk radio for days after Obama's re-election. They just don't get it. They are allergic to the math of demographic change. I made the point, and I will repeat it. If people tell you your language is offensive, and it is backed up by election results that show you've made enemies out of Hispanics, Asians, and women, it doesn't matter how much you claim it has nothing to do with color, gender, etc. Your language has offended people. Not all people, not all statements--but enough. If the Republicans keep letting the Bircher's drive the train, they are going into the river at the next washed-out bridge.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4153

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boggsman1 wrote:
mrgybe wrote:
boggsman1 wrote:
The same is true with immigration. It is illegal to enter the country, unauthorized , but once you are here, provided you dont commit a crime, you can stay.

No you can't.

Yes, you can. Its not a law we enforce. Just like driving 58 in a 55 zone.


Once the government decides which laws it wants to enforce and which one it doesn't, you have the beginning of Facism. We literally have thousands of new laws every year. Many not enforced, many used to intimidate and control for political purposes.

Recent example: The Amish clan who cut the beards off their neighbors received 15 years in prison for a hate crime. Really? We got armed thugs who receive 1 year, but an Amish dude cuts a beard and he gets 15 years? Do we really need a dozen Amish folks serving long sentences for cutting beards? The govt can indict a ham sandwich if it wants to.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3572
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve...its not a decision by law enforcement, so you can relax, we are not heading toward facism. Its a matter of feasibilty. Explain how we enforce the law as Mr Gybe sees it. Do you suggest we raid Tyson's chicken and deport half their work force? Should we spend $20-30 Billion raiding half of California, and shutting down the economy at the same time? Please explain, and while you're at it, explain how we better "protect our borders". Also explain how we reduce the influence of the corporation, the main beneficiary of the undocumented. Why dont you start with Citizens United......that will go over like a fart in church.
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