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Pipe dream? Obamacare
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 7449
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr G..are you aware the link you posted shows Mr Romney outspent the prez by 7M?

Last edited by boggsman1 on Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:45 am; edited 2 times in total
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 7449
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Techno , and BB .. My point is that the bond market has been rallying for five years in spite of the pending collapse of our society.
The answers to your questions are no, and yes.
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 4570

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boggsman1 wrote:
Mr G..are you aware the link you posted shows Mr Romney outspent the prez by 7M?

Perhaps you realized you would have trouble supporting the assertion in your deleted response ($200mm more spent by Romney)? Yes I did see the $7mm. Seemed totally insignificant given a billion dollar campaign and a leaky reporting system. But then, I'm not an ace Wall Street analyst who enjoys "bitch slaps".
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 7449
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Gybe...the fact is Romney spent more, its in your post. If you factor in the Shelden Adelson's of the world, the number goes to well North of 200m. If you want me to list the details for you , I will. The point is Mr Obama beat Mr Romney by 4 points in an election he could have easily lost, and the Billionaires lined up for Mr Romney, hence the bitch slap. carry on.
CORRECTION- according to the LA Times , Conservative groups associated w Romney OUTSPENT the PREZ by $260MM. sorry, I was low.
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No. The point is that Senator Obama lied when campaigning to be the Democrat presidential candidate. He has probably changed the nature of Presidential campaigns, for the worse, forever. Transformative indeed.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 7449
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe wrote:
No. The point is that Senator Obama lied when campaigning to be the Democrat presidential candidate. He has probably changed the nature of Presidential campaigns, for the worse, forever. Transformative indeed.

you are naive...wow. I am with you if you really want to change how we finance campaigns. I am with David Stockman, who says public finance ONLY. Would you join me in trying to repeal Citizens United? Justice Alito's favorite moment.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2807

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe wrote:
No. The point is that Senator Obama lied when campaigning to be the Democrat presidential candidate.

HE LIED? I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked!!

(Were you surprised to learn that they gambled at Rick's cafe?)

Bush, Cheney, McCain (Mr. Keating Five), Palin, Romney, Ryan, Boehner, McConnell would NEVER think of lying for political purposes!
.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 12971
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan--and of course not mrgybe. This is perhaps a more serious subject than simply a platform to call Obama a liar. Obama's decision in the 2008 election to accept unlimited funds and not abide by the McCain-Feingold system came two plus years before the Supreme Court decision on Citizens United opened the doors wide. It was not a transformative effort--but perhaps not the lie that mrgybe would like to think. However, it is a legitimate--albeit unbalanced to the point of being unhinged--criticism of Obama.

You can poke around and see the contributors to the 2008 presidential candidates here: http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/indexp.php, and see the enormous sum of money that it takes to run a campaign, and the amount of that money that comes from large contributors. It is obvious to me, and to most of the country, that the large contributions, even though dilute (the list of PAC's goes on forever) ensure access if not results. The question then becomes what to do about it.

In 2008, Obama had two rather unusual circumstances. First, he was garnering contributions from small contributors to an unprecedented--and probably unexpected--degree. That gave him the capacity to raise a huge warchest without Federal matching. Second, the object lesson of the "Swift Boating" of John Kerry was fresh in everyone's mind. The pundits of the right were vowing to raise whatever funds necessary to defeat Obama. In this respect I think your comment about a knife fight was accurate.

Prior to running for President, John McCain had my respect as a person who not only recognized the corrupting influence of campaign money, but had done more about it than almost anyone in Congress. However, he lost my respect as he abandoned virtually all of his previously held positions of any moderation in an effort to pander to the far right in his party. It cost him public perceptions of his integrity, as well as the election. While some would give him a higher score on direct fund raising than Obama, he was comfortably assured that plenty of "independent" money would be raised and spent to offset any Obama edge.

The question that is begged in the hysteria by which mrgbye attacks Obama, is what we can and can't do, legally and politically, to offset the corrupting influence of money in politics--and whether there is any difference between the parties. After Citizens United in 2010, the doors are wide open. Indeed, I have heard pursuasive arguments by Elliot Spitzer that that decision was correct, and that the restrictions were an unwarranted infringement of free speech. It unfortunately follows from the lamentable decision of earlier courts to find that corporations which cannot be punished as citizens are punished for wrong-doing, are citizens. There is no doubt that the Court went out of its way to not merely invalidate the restrictions against Citizens United, but to throw nearly all restrictions on fund raising onto the ash heap.

There is, however, a major distinction between the parties, no matter how they each pander now to big donors. Free speech does not automatically mean anonymous speech. Restrictions that require notification of the source of funding on such attack pieces are not prohibited. Yet Republicans blocked every single attempt to reveal the sources of funding in the aftermath of Citizens United. Their commitement to transparency is not something to warm your heart.

It is clear that Obama has not made reform of election financing a major effort that he is willing to expend any political capital on, at least to date. Along with much of the left, I am disappointed with this decision. His decision to forgo public funding in 2008 was a calculated decision that, in my opinion, reflects the corrupting influence of money on all candidates. To characterize it as a deliberate lie, as for example Cheney's efforts in getting us into Iraq, is the fevered frenzy of a hater.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 12971
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Techno puts words in the mouths of liberals with these comments:

Quote:
A question for ALL liberals - Do you want open borders, and if so, why?

Another question for all liberals - Does the national debt concern any of you, and if not, what point will it become a concern?


Techno--just a clue--when people tell you that the term "illegal immigrant" is offensive, and nearly all of the citizens who are descendants of Hispanic, Asian, and Middle East immigrants vote against you--guess what. The term is offensive. When I am offended by such terms that does not equate to open borders. But unlike you, I have paid attention to the establishment of immigration policy, largely by Republicans in service of their agricultural corporate sponsors. Try to use a little logic.

The issue of debt has been asked and answered, in substantial detail, on other threads. Debt and cashflow matter--but not to the point of stopping thinking and hammering the poor. Pay attention to one of those threads, and post something thoughtful and you might get a response. But it needs to be more than talking points.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 3407

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac...

I did not realize that "illegal immagrant" was offensive either. What is the politically correct term?
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