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ISOBARS FINALLY MADE A MISTAKE!
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surfersteve



Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 113

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:29 pm    Post subject: ISOBARS FINALLY MADE A MISTAKE! Reply with quote

Isobars posted in the booty dialogue "loaded knees are not designed to rotate." This is really not true. Fully extended knees do not rotate, but a flexed knee is designed to rotate even with significant loading.
I know this post doesn't mean shit, but no one can ever get isobars on anything - he is just too knowledgeable. So unless you have worked in healthcare for more than twenty years and have more orthopedic experience than me Isobars, I think I got you!
Hope you get on the water soon so you can school me. Peace Brother.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14239

PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IF a loaded and flexed knee is designed to rotate, I was wrong in not being clear that I meant "straight". However, I don't know that a flexed knee can safely rotate when loaded. It surely doesn't feel safe to me.

From http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/408520_4 :
Meniscal Lesions: Diagnosis and Treatment

Robert S. P. Fan, MD, Richard K. N. Ryu, MD

Diagnosis

The clinical diagnosis of a meniscal lesion depends on the insight and experience of the physician. The patient with meniscal pathology typically presents with symptoms referable to the joint line, either medially or laterally. In traumatic cases, an injury is brought on with the knee in flexion, weight bearing, followed by rotation.

???

Also consider the Apley's test for a meniscus tear: flex it, load it, rotate it ... and watch the patient come up off the table.

Mike \m/
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surfersteve



Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 113

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent research. Being a PT for 19 years I can tell you the Apley Test is quite accurate for meniscus tear diagnosis. However, perform that test on 100 healthy knees and they don't mind at all. I suspect most of the swell riding we do it with a flexed, loaded knee. It is only when the loading force prevents the meniscus from remaining mobile between the femur and tibia that it tears. Watch Barry Sanders or Reggie Bush run on turf in slow-motion. All they do is pivot on loaded knees. Why a meniscus tears after 30,000 successful pivots is a medical mystery no one can answer.
Isobars, I have learned a great deal from reading your posts. You know more about sailing than I ever will. Just busting them man. As I said earlier, see you on the water.
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doug_needs_wind



Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We'll see who's right tomorrow... see you @ Roosevelt!
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14239

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

doug_needs_wind wrote:
We'll see who's right tomorrow... see you @ Roosevelt!

Not at these water temps! I'm not even looking at wind forecasts yet.
Worse yet, not one of my many Columbia River water temp websites works this spring. It's going to be trial and error based on historical averages.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14239

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

surfersteve wrote:
Excellent research. Being a PT for 19 years I can tell you the Apley Test is quite accurate for meniscus tear diagnosis. However, perform that test on 100 healthy knees and they don't mind at all. I suspect most of the swell riding we do it with a flexed, loaded knee.... Watch Barry Sanders or Reggie Bush run on turf in slow-motion. All they do is pivot on loaded knees.

I'm not qualified to debate the point at length. I'm not taking a strong stance on this issue because I haven't researched it thoroughly, but I read too often in too many medical and sports physiology sources not to pivot -- as opposed to stepping sideways -- on a loaded knee that I'm neither going to try it or recommend it. Too much at stake ... and yet another reason I won't sail any distance with one foot in and one out of my straps. Barry and Reggie get paid to take those risks; I don't.

Questions: Is their pivoting at the knee vs in the hips and back? Are they rotating their tibia relative to their femur, or are they driving laterally without twisting at the knee?

Please don't think I resent you or anyone else looking for or finding mistakes I've made. Any time I'm wrong, I want to know it. However, if my sources are widespread and credible, convincing me requires topping those sources.
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Zemanski



Joined: 12 Jun 2000
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
Worse yet, not one of my many Columbia River water temp websites works this spring. averages.


http://www.nwd-wc.usace.army.mil/ftppub/water_quality/bon.txt

http://www.cbr.washington.edu/dart/wrapper?mgconfig=river&outputFormat=plot&year=2013&proj=TDA&data=Temp+WQM&startdate=1%2F1&enddate=12%2F31&consolidate=1&zeros=1&grid=1&y1min=0&y1max=&y2min=0&y2max=&size=medium

Way too cold for me
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forwards



Joined: 30 May 2000
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zemanski wrote:


Way too cold for me


Finally the gorge @48.2F is warmer than puget sound @47.8, and lake washington @48! Roosevelt should be good tomorrow, but pow at Crystal should be better. --rb
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14239

PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

THANKS, Zemanski. Looks like I'm late to the party this year, as the water temps are already barefootable, skies have often been crystal clear, and we've had some windy days nearing 70 degrees lately.

This particular day, however, I'll pass. I'm getting too picky to enjoy these early season, squally, rainy, extremely gusty, chilly, 40-60 mph days.

What happened to the usual water temp data, with the fancy day-by-day plots at every dam? They're all belly up this spring. Sequestration? Budget in general? None of my bookmarked water data sites work anymore.

Mike \m/
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gmclean



Joined: 08 Mar 2001
Posts: 79

PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The front is pushing through right now......
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