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MalibuGuru
Joined: 11 Nov 1993 Posts: 9300
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999 Posts: 17752 Location: Berkeley, California
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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GT--we need to ignore the pathetic mewlings of Bard--he has no idea how much this is going to cost--and that he is going to pay it instead of the heavier carbon users. It is interesting to note the George Schultz announced his support for a carbon tax that captures those externalities.
Quote: | Washington -- Republican eminence grise George Shultz addressed a packed room on Capitol Hill Friday to press for a carbon tax.
A Californian now at the conservative Hoover Institution at Stanford University, Shultz taught economics at the University of Chicago and is one of just two people ever to hold four Cabinet posts.
Bucking his party on climate change, Shultz said all forms of energy should compete "on a level playing field" by incorporating the cost of their carbon pollution.
Once carbon pollution is included in energy prices, Shultz would "wipe out" subsidies to all fuels - fossil, nuclear and renewable - and let the market choose.
Carbon tax revenue under his plan would be remitted to consumers in the form of a "carbon dividend check." Modeled on Alaska's Permanent Fund, the plan is similar in concept to legislation by Sens. Barbara Boxer, D-Calif., and Bernie Sanders, independent-Vt.
Shultz said that when he was secretary of state in the 1980s, scientists became concerned about depletion of the Earth's ozone layer. The science was controversial, he said, but everyone agreed that, if true, the results would be catastrophic.
Former President Ronald Reagan "decided we should have an insurance policy," he said...
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/science/article/George-Shultz-pushes-for-carbon-tax-4340917.php#ixzz2N4DGJLNg |
I would love to see this as a mechanism to reduce the debt--half devoted to debt reduction and half to tax reduction. Are there enough sane Republicans left in Washington D. C.?
You asked about the study and funding. That is the right question to ask. Here's a link to the CV of the study principal: http://proglacial.com/Proglacial/CV.html
He is a post doc at Oregon State, and comes with the right credentials to study paleo-geology. He's a kid, so I assume that he has made mistakes--but most of the kids I meet coming out of geology programs in California are so much better educated than I was, I'm pretty sure he is pretty good. I can't tell for sure, but it looks like the study grant is from the National Geographic Society, and was presumably based on a research proposal. Paleogeologists have been trying to figure out temperature and CO2 patterns for about 3 decades now, and they just keep getting better.
Mac |
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pueno
Joined: 03 Mar 2007 Posts: 2807
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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Release it in Alaska and watch Caribou Barbie nail it with an AR-15 from a helicopter.
"Polar bears, they're just unlucky."
Yeah, that works.
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MalibuGuru
Joined: 11 Nov 1993 Posts: 9300
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999 Posts: 17752 Location: Berkeley, California
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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Bard--you are a scream. I laughed out loud. Now listen carefully. The sun is the source of the energy and heat on earth, including stored heat in fossil fuels and plants. But warming is the result when carbon dioxide builds up in the atmosphere and heat is retained on the planet rather than radiated back into space. Two different systems.
You can get a used high school physics book pretty cheap. |
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pueno
Joined: 03 Mar 2007 Posts: 2807
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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mac wrote: |
You can get a used high school physics book pretty cheap. |
You're assuming that he'd read it.
And if he read it, you're assuming he'd understand it.
And if he understood it, you're assuming he'd believe it (it IS science, after all).
And if he believed it, you're assuming he'd admit it.
Lotta assumptions there.
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coboardhead
Joined: 26 Oct 2009 Posts: 4303
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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BS Pueno...It is easy to poke fun at the other posters. A bit more difficult to engage in the conversation with some real input.
Oops...Now I did it. Carry on! |
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keycocker
Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 3598
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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That trapped heat has the sun as its original source back down the chain.
I have a high school physics book to check since I substitute teach that subject.
Been a long time since high school huh guys. Did you talk trash all the time back then too? |
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999 Posts: 17752 Location: Berkeley, California
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:53 am Post subject: |
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Didn't talk trash in high school. As they said then, act like you've been in the end zone before. I am perfectly happy to have a serious discussion about global warming and the strengths and weaknesses of the two extreme positions. But when someone posts a simple fact like heat comes from the sun, and then runs with that to a ludicrous conclusion that global warming will be good for the planet, trash talking seems to be the only appropriate response. |
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pueno
Joined: 03 Mar 2007 Posts: 2807
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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coboardhead wrote: | BS Pueno...It is easy to poke fun at the other posters. A bit more difficult to engage in the conversation with some real input.
Oops...Now I did it. Carry on! |
Real input?
OK... The sun's radiation hits the earth primarily as short wavelength infrared. At the shorter wavelengths, carbon dioxide is transparent, so the radiation sails right through the atmosphere, from sun to us.
Once that IR hits the earth's surface, it warms it. The earth's surface re-radiates infrared, but because the temperature is lower, the wavelength is much longer. At longer wavelengths, CO2 is opaque -- so it blocks the infrared from radiating back into space.
Thus, the energy from the sun is trapped here by the CO2. This raises the atmospheric temperature.
Methane is also opaque to longer wave IR energy. Like CO2, it's a "greenhouse gas."
Our sister planet Venus has an atmosphere that's rich in CO2 -- and a surface temperature exceeding the melting point of lead.
That might be a clue.
Incidentally, this has NOTHING to do with CFCs, aka "Freon." That gas acts as a catalyst, promoting the dissociation of ozone (O3) into normal oxygen (O2). Unfortunately, a molecule of CFC is not consumed in the reaction, so it stays in the upper atmosphere destroying the ozone molecules. Thus, the CFC from a leaky air-conditioner or a spray can (propellent) stays up there continuing to do damage.
The ozone (O3) blocks harmful cancer-causing ultraviolet radiation, so ozone serves as a valuable shield to protect us. Ordinary oxygen does not block UV.
Bard might find that used physics book --- but now he doesn't need it.
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