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a few observatons, questions and rants
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1365

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say another durability issue Craig, is the old rigidity v. flex thing.

The board I learned to jump on was a late 80's custom Lightwaves wave board, with epoxy skin and heavyish dense foam core. Unlike modern super light-super stiff boards, the inbuilt flexing absorbed shock loadings and didn't set up destructive resonances as perhaps can happen in stiffer boards. It took a great many bad landings of the kind which would probably destroy a rigid board. (the epoxy skin easily dinged, but was equally easily repaired.)

It's significant to me that one of the best board constructions for durability used to be the late 80's, early 90's Mistral D.C.S. ranges. (Durable Carbon System.) I still sometimes take my 1989 Mistral D.C.S. Shredder for an outing, and you can definitely feel the give and flex when pounding over chop, which must help absorb and dampen destructive forces. Despite its age and considerable past usage, it remains completely sound.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14321

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgoudie1 wrote:
And the durability thing is a question of what you want also. Maybe I've
been lucky, because I have a custom (probably made by the same vendor
Mike dislikes because of durability issues) ... you can request a stronger layup, if you want one,
or a lighter (and more delicate) layup if you want one. The operative word is YOU.

-Craig

p.s. I have a custom modified IBM HiTech, that is 20 years old and
probably has at least 150 hard days on it, and it still solid.


The first (and last) new IBM I rose lasted less than an hour before its deck box exploded. Stuff happens.

I ordered three boards at once from a local shaper. Told him "I don't care what they weigh; build them strong." I destroyed the first two in weeks, sold them crudely patched for 5 cents on the dollar after the shaper couldn't repair them, and sold the unused one to a lightweight non-jumper for 20 cents on the dollar.

But that was just one brand. That very short list of problems above encompasses several brands, some more than others.
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 1279
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, stuff does happen, and like I say, I'm lucky.
You seem to be less so. Maybe it's a difference in
our sailing styles, or body styles, or maybe it's just
clean liv'n ;*)

-Craig

isobars wrote:


The first (and last) new IBM I rose lasted less than an hour before its deck box exploded. Stuff happens.

I ordered three boards at once from a local shaper. Told him "I don't care what they weigh; build them strong." I destroyed the first two in weeks, sold them crudely patched for 5 cents on the dollar after the shaper couldn't repair them, and sold the unused one to a lightweight non-jumper for 20 cents on the dollar.

But that was just one brand. That very short list of problems above encompasses several brands, some more than others.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14321

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgoudie1 wrote:
Yep, stuff does happen, and like I say, I'm lucky.
You seem to be less so. Maybe it's a difference in
our saling styles, or body styles, or maybe it's just
clean liv'n ;*)

If it were clean livin', I couldn't break an egg. I was a saint -- or a prude, depending on one's point of view -- even by my 99% Mormon neighborhood's standards ... dammit. Our sailing styles are vastly different, but new boards shedding whole bottoms in their first reach, or spouting geysers in their first session, or their decks turning to oatmeal in one season under non-jumpers are construction flaws, not sailing style differences ... and none of those was me anyway.

U222, if you really meant to say some custom boards are weaker weapons than productions, we do agree on that. But it took you several iterations to arrive at that point, so misunderstanding it was easy. If you thought I deliberately misread or misquoted you, you're mistaken.
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3081
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't speak in lawerize, I write what I feel to be just and truthful.

No I did not mean, to write that some customs are weaker than production boards, in my experience the opposite is correct, as well I get some satisfaction that the board IS made for my style

You quote those portions that suit the argument/discussion you desire to make, much like a politician who finds something the opponent says and cuts it up to form a meaning of their choosing.

The fact that you dislike customs , because of bad experience in the past is your point of view, hardly factual that should sway others opinions,
OH the same as my opinion, they need to reach a decision that works for them.

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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14321

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

U2U2U2 wrote:
1. You quote those portions that suit the argument/discussion you desire to make, much like a politician who finds something the opponent says and cuts it up to form a meaning of their choosing.

The fact that you dislike customs , because of bad experience in the past is your point of view, hardly factual that should sway others opinions

Now, as best as we can tell, you are back to stating that all customs are superior to all production boards, in durability and maybe (I can't tell just what you're saying) performance. Believe whatever you want, but I'm telling people not to base purchases on any blanket statements, especially that one.

Of course I'm quoting the portions of your comments, in context, on which I wish to comment. What else would I quote?

If I disliked customs, why would I have bought more than a couple dozen of them, from some dozen builders, at prices from full retail to pennies on the dollar, from 1983 right up through 2011? Why would I rave about some of them online for 20 years? And why would I not buy some custom brands for $10?

You say you're basing your comments on your own experience. I'm basing mine on the written and verbal experiences of scores of WSers, from guys who can't plane though a jibe to ranked pros of all disciplines.
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3081
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="isobars"]
U2U2U2 wrote:
Now, as best as we can tell, you are back to stating that all customs are superior to all production boards, in durability and maybe (I can't tell just what you're saying) performance. Believe whatever you want, but I'm telling people not to base purchases on any blanket statements, especially that one.




Read this::: " NOW ...as best .WE.. can tell..

Who is the WE? it is YOU, you period !!

I have NOT changed my position from the post that you have had the problem with, and unfortunate you still don't get it. I have tried to read thru the chickens and bananas , but you have such a smoke screen , disinformation of interpretations, and self truths, that you have told yourself this so often that it is in fact now the truth

you will probably write something like none of this makes sense

you need to have a nice long rest

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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5893

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

U2U2U2, unfortunately you've got caught up in the isobars loop. He talks about folks pissing in the bunch bowl, but many of us find that that's his specialty. As I see it, he gone out of his way to crap on custom boards. It's telling that he talks about nightmares with custom boards, but never talks about the custom brands involved. Moreover, he pretends that he cares about naive readers here and professes his interest in protecting them, but never really backs things up with credible information. I find a problem with that.

As you know, I've been dedicated to custom boards for over 20 years. Overall, the quality of all my boards has been outstanding. Are all custom boards superior to production boards? I would have to say no just because not all custom shapers manufacture boards in their entirety. It's not unusual for a custom shaper to hire others to glass and finish their boards. Anytime you hire others to assist in the manufacture of a product, you have a chance that the product might fall short to some degree, just like it could happen with large production manufacturers. Needless to say though, we would all like to think that only the best workers are involved in the construction of the boards we buy.

When buying a custom board, I think it's super important to consider a designer/builder's reputation overall for designs, performance, quality and durability. In my view, if the boards are built entirely by designer/builder, you have the best chance of getting an outstanding product that meets the highest standards. I think that it could be argued that you get a lot more love in the product, because it's a personal statement of their knowledge, expertise and dedication.
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jingebritsen



Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 2439

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i started windsurfing in the '80's. nearly everyone had a long board that allowed them to go windsurfing nearly anytime. now, most of us have high performance stuff in our cars. and, the sport continues to promote gear that's only good in really ideal conditions. most places and people don't have such ideal conditions available. furthermore, most people could teach their friends to windsurf on a very casual basis. now, one must pay and/or plan out a special trip....
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3081
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
U2U2U2, Are all custom boards superior to production boards? I would have to say no just because not all custom shapers manufacture boards in their entirety. It's not unusual for a custom shaper to hire others to glass and finish their boards. Anytime you hire others to assist in the manufacture of a product, you have a chance that the product might fall short to some degree, just like it could happen with large production manufacturers. Needless to say though, we would all like to think that only the best workers are involved in the construction of the boards we buy.

When buying a custom board, I think it's super important to consider a designer/builder's reputation overall for designs, performance, quality and durability. In my view, if the boards are built entirely by designer/builder, you have the best chance of getting an outstanding product that meets the highest standards. I think that it could be argued that you get a lot more love in the product, because it's a personal statement of their knowledge, expertise and dedication.


nothing much to comment on here. Reflects my thoughts as stated before, not just any custom builder that you throw darts to pick.

your 2nd paragraph above , does touch on design but I read you mostly want strength, probably an interpretation on my part, point is: the builder needs to be in touch with you, I could have "the best most radical wave "board" and it doesn't suit my sailing environment.
( Mike did say this much in his words)

the remainder of your post is a realistic assessment of SOP.

I will say that Mike could be"NOT" disclosing any names of board builders
because he doesn't want to open a different can of worms, or tarnish the reputation, or any other number of reasons

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