myiW Current Conditions and Forecasts Community Forums Windsurfing Videos Buy and Sell Services
 
Hi guest · myAccount · Log in
 SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   RegisterRegister 
a few observatons, questions and rants
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    iWindsurf Community Forum Index -> Windsurfing Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14335

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your entire post makes no sense whatsoever to me.

If anyone else doesn't understand what I'm saying, but would like to (or is considering paying big bucks in the hopes that just because a board is custom it is super-strong), ask me to try again.






That's what I thought.

Mike \m/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3082
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="isobars"]Does duct taping a piece of titanium or rubber cementing a layer of Buckyballs to a banana make it bulletproof? You know as well as I that the durability of a product depends more on its weakest link than on its strongest one.

Many customs are weaker than many OEMs, whether with individual boards or across a whole line, and a guarantee is no better than the manufacturer who issued it unless it's worth going to court over.

/quote]

the banana example is a example of the endless rhetoric, and leads me to believe you know less than nothing about board construction, either custom or production.

the second sentence I left in above, refers to your OEM phrase, How pray tell does this relate to production windsurf boards.. alternators , washing machines come to mind.

An original equipment manufacturer, or OEM, manufactures products or components that are purchased by another company and retailed under that purchasing company's brand name.[1] OEM refers to the company that originally manufactured the product. When referring to automotive parts, OEM designates a replacement part made by the manufacturer of the original part, like a Toyota alternator VS a NAPA one..... get it ?

Many customs...... are weaker... What does that mean , many ?

more , less , please quote your source .

The sailors on here who have Mikes Labs & Open Oceans are falling off their chairs right now with laughter


I have had one warranty issue with a Cobra board, it would not have mattered if the shop were 5 minutes away or 5 continents away.

The shop did absolve responsibility and said have the manufacture deal with it . so yes the warranty is just about worth the paper its written on.

_________________
K4 fins
4Boards....May the fours be with you

http://www.k4fins.com/fins.html
http://4boards.co.uk/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14335

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everyone else here understood my post, but I'll explain it to you.

You implied that just because a board has Dyneema that it's a wunderboard. Not if the Dyneema isn't properly integrated into the structure. Bananas, boards, Buckyballs (look it up), Dyneema, duct tape ... everyone else understood the parallels, but I'll elaborate for you. If the bond between a hull (or a banana) and a layer of unobtanium fails, the board (or the banana) still falls apart.

OEM ... Original Equipment Manufacturer ... off the shelf ... mass produced ... standard factory stuff ... production ... stock ... non-custom ... everybody else got it, but then they were focused on windsurfing, not whatever personal BS you're dwelling on. You said it yourself: OEM refers to the company that originally manufactured the product. That applies to Cobra, to Bic, and to Toyota, all whom integrate lower-order OEM components and materials into their final products. You knew damned well what I was talking about, but choose instead to piss in our punchbowl again.

"Many customs are weaker than many OEMs, whether with individual boards or across a whole line" is also pretty clear to minds not clouded by puzzling anger. Put another way, there is a big overlap in the durability ranges of customs and production boards. You're implying that all customs are inherently stronger than all production boards; I'm stating the obvious fact that that is not true. That is self-evident; no source needed. Some usually-great customs occasionally fail, some custom brands are widely known to fail way too often/quickly, some individual production boards last for many years of heavy use, and some brands of production boards are tougher than some other production brands. Your claim that there is no overlap in the Venn durability circles of production and custom boards just is not true, and your tender feelings matter 99% less to me than the hopes and pocketbooks of naive readers.

I wouldn't know about Mike's Labs boards. I DO know about many other custom marques, some of which have common and widely known durability issues. Many owners of many of those boards are not laughing.

You shouldn't need the Cobra factory to get service on your production board; that's your dealer's obligation. If he absolves himself from a valid claim, he does not deserve your business. But we know up front that the only person who can do warranty (or guarantee) work on our custom board is its shaper.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3082
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
Everyone else here understood my post, but I'll explain it to you.



It matters not if I understood your post, and I never said either way, I just don't agree with it.

You need read not any further than the first line of the above

" Everyone else here understood my post "

Please name just ONE that has acknowledged that ?

OEM does not refer to a windsurf board, it refers to parts of a unit, your homemade definition just doesn't float, its a production board, not a OEM.

No you should not need the Cobra factory, this comment explains some of what you have little to no knowledge of.

The dealer who sells you the board has the initial warranty claim, if they refuse to honor it, and their certainly will be issues where they won't justified or not, then the claim could be escalated to the particular board company, Brand xzx for instance. Cobra is NOT going to be involved.

Thanks for saying I am focused on windsurfing and not tie rode ends.

You say you state an obvious fact, but can't back up said claim,
and it is I who have the BS here.

Too bad you know nothing about Mikes Labs, how many other customs do you know nothing about ? actually don't answer that as it would look like War and Peace.


You continue to put words into posts and infer that the remarks are made by me
The reference to BS is ill advised by you, Dear Sir.

_________________
K4 fins
4Boards....May the fours be with you

http://www.k4fins.com/fins.html
http://4boards.co.uk/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DelCarpenter



Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Posts: 185
Location: Cedar Falls, IA

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Isobars and U2U2U2,

I believe I've understood all of the posts each of you made on this thread. Both of you make good points, and I believe what each of you said about boards is true. But, somehow both of you got caught up in trying to convince the rest of us of something that sounds like "my truth is more important than his truth".

What each of you said about boards is true. All of those good things do happen, all of those bad things do happen. All of us are stuck with deciding for ourselves which chances we want to take when we buy our next piece of equipment.

In the Midwest venues where I sail I think I'm seeing an increase in both windsurfing and kiteboarding. SUP is coming on strong (though kayaking is bigger than all three combined).

I think most shops that want to stay in business diversify their product line to attract a wider range of customers. The two biggest kayak dealers in my area added SUP products in the last year. (I'm 200 miles away from kiting or windsurfing dealers).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14335

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DelCarpenter wrote:
what each of you said about boards is true.

Not possible. He said customs, "anytime any place anywhere ... [are] a stronger better made weapon [than production boards]". Concerned that his false blanket statement would persuade yet another naive heartlander to spend big bucks on a pig in a poke in the quest of a bulletproof and magic-performing board only to be disappointed, I challenged it with the obvious fact that some customs, either due to individual boards' flukes or shapers using substandard or inconsistent materials or methods across their line, are definitely NOT stronger better made weapons.

I'll rephrase it for about the fourth time in the pursuit of clarity. If you somehow rated every individual board's durability (hours to first structural failure? MTBF?) and plotted them on a graph from one minute to 10 years or 100,000 miles, there will be overlap between custom and production boards. (Get it? Many customs will prove weaker than many productions, in direct opposition to his claim.) Closer examination of the plot will reveal that some custom brands cluster below (i.e. weaker than) some production brands, or at least below all boards' overall average or mean durability.

I have to believe his insistence that he did not know what I meant by "OEM", correct term or not, is just a red herring to distract us from that fact.

What good is a layer of carbon, Dyneema, Buckyballs, or petrified chicken $@!+ if it peels off the entire bottom of a new custom board in its first reach 2,000 miles from the shaper (putting its owner through his equally new sail), if a board's deck turns to mush in a season, if its fin box rips out within days and the shaper can't repair it, if the whole bottom develops deep and fatal ripples within a couple of weeks, if it spouts water inches into the air from scores of pinholes after its first session, or if its very structure has to be repaired after every day of use? Those are just the tip of the iceberg of custom board failures I've seen. I've owned only about 25 customs of several brands, professionally tested only another 15-20 brands, ridden only a few more, and sail every day among many customs, so I can't possibly have ridden every marque available (e.g., Mike's, Fox, Bassett), but that doesn't change the nature of the plot I referred to.

I can think of no way to reconcile his claim (no overlap) and mine (overlap), and the distinction is very important to people whose only exposure to customs is via internet hyperbole. They give a much larger crap about facts than about U2**3's ego, and may be in for some disappointments if they aren't willing to read both sides of the coin, even if it takes them 10 whole minutes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3082
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

U2U2U2 wrote:


I would go any number of custom:: anytime any place anywhere

you would certainly receive a stronger better made weapon, and then you can even pick the graphics on........
so vampire ,zombie to Barbie doll , to plain white wrapper


this is WHAT is said, not the part that you desire pick apart, " I WOULD GO ANY NUMBER OF CUSTOM " , meaning their is also a number that I would NOT pick.

your remarks about chickens and bananas have no bearing on the construction internals of a windsurf board.

I would expect someone with your vast experience to call a Starboard windsurf board a production , perhaps standard production board, in the same manner I would a carpenter to call a claw hammer NOT a ball peen hammer, OEM , you if you don't even talk the talk , I would suspect you don't walk the walk.

I think my EGO is NOT bruised here, and what I express is what I believe to be the case, fact .. well its not written in stone.

You give indications of being on a crusade against customs, and cant seem to agree with even those that say they see your point.

No thoughts on how you should peruse getting the message out to the folks, that I belong to cult and am spreading false information.

Maybe the Knights Templar, or your own thread to spread the words

_________________
K4 fins
4Boards....May the fours be with you

http://www.k4fins.com/fins.html
http://4boards.co.uk/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1367

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I understand your point U2 times 3. A good custom board designer and builder who fully understands the stresses and strains and materials needed to contain them, and has a reputation to protect (e.g. Witchcraft) will provide a superior and more durable product.

Cobra production boards MAY not always have the same degree of care put into their construction (we've all heard the horror stories of faulty interiors) and it's a toss up whether or not the expensive new board we buy is a good or a bad one, which will fail prematurely.

Does it not follow that the less the human factor involved in construction, the more uniforn and closer to the designers intentions the board will be. Isn't that why Bic, with their automated computer controlled production line of thermoformed boards, are more than adequately robust and durable, not to mention cheaper?

Would a top flight modern board built by the Bic process (a little heavier and a little more flexible) really perform any the worse?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3082
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the weight issue a few years back went a little too far, with a number of Cobra boards breaking. One RRD was caught on video breaking on landing from a small ramp, it pretty much went viral. But little do we know about its previous care.

The same year RRD is in my van and has proven to be very sound.

The BICs construction you mention is strong, and the weight for a comparable size Cobra board, its heavy. So ya pays your money and take yer pick .

If I were teaching someone to sail it would be a likely candidate, so much SO that is what I have for this summer.

To follow your point on the builder, as well as a strong board, I want the builder to understand my desires from the board, what range of sails and typical conditions encountered. When someone says OH ya we do those all the time, without any further research into my particular sailing style, I pass.

Jon at Moo Custom is great at reading this

_________________
K4 fins
4Boards....May the fours be with you

http://www.k4fins.com/fins.html
http://4boards.co.uk/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 1285
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So to the OP, yes there are some places you can go beside Cobra
to get a board, and those that I know, are custom shops on the west coast,
and in the Gorge. I have tried to ween myself off custom boards,
mostly as an experiment, because there is a certain nuisance with
ordering a custom. The jury is still out on my latest "production"
board. But I do like my customs, and I can only comment on my
own experience. Some have heard this before. Getting a "good" custom board, requires 1 of 2 things of you. Either you need to know what
you want and why you want it, or you need to be completely honest
with the shaper. What I mean by this is you either understand
planform and how it works (maybe through experience with a lot of
boards, or genius), or, you be brutally honest about your abilities
and where you'll ride the board. There are a lot of displeased custom
riders, who rip like Josh Stone, in DTL mast high waves who hate
their boards, because they can't jibe and ride on an inland gusty
lake that's typically 5 to 20.

And the durability thing is a question of what you want also. Maybe I've
been lucky, because I have a custom (probably made by the same vendor
Mike dislikes because of durability issues) which I've ridden for years and
jumped the crap out of, and which has been driven over by my friends
truck (at The Wall, not some wussy sand beach), which, aside from some
pretty substantial dimpling, is still intact and I'm still riding. But, when I had the thing built, I didn't ask the builder to make the thing weigh in at
15 pounds (or less), and I wanted closed cell foam. When I ordered this
board, I had my own planform in mind, (and my own graphics) and I'd
had some difficult experiences with standard polystyrene production
boards which I seemed to be able to soften up, or delam, or crack
pretty quickly jumping them (and I really hate it when you don't notice a
crack and they fill with water.) Anyway, I don't know that a custom
board is any more or less durable than a comparable production board,
but I'm pretty sure, you can request a stronger layup, if you want one,
or a lighter (and more delicate) layup if you want one. The operative word is YOU.

-Craig

p.s. I have a custom modified IBM HiTech, that is 20 years old and
probably has at least 150 hard days on it, and it still solid.


Last edited by cgoudie1 on Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    iWindsurf Community Forum Index -> Windsurfing Discussion All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 3 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum

myiW | Weather | Community | Membership | Support | Log in
like us on facebook
© Copyright 1999-2007 WeatherFlow, Inc Contact Us Ad Marketplace

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group