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the big lie "the media is liberal"
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1922

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Johnl wrote

Quote:
And if a cop needed physical assistance how many of you would jump in to help him at risk to your own safety? Not many if any.


Johnl...I am surprised that in years as a LEO that you did not witness more of this. I have helped out Highway Patrols and Sheriffs a number of times out on the road (stuck in ditch in a storm, helping at accident scenes, changing tire etc.) Sure, there was not much risk to my own safety. An ex highway patrol friend received lots of help when he was injured at the side of the road.

Would I jump in the middle of a gun fight. Not likely, but, I wouldn't leave a cop dying on the street either. I wouldn't exert any less effort in helping a LEO just because I got a ticket once. I believe most of us would do what we could. It is rather unfair to characterise us as you have.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5745

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I would tend to agree that johnl appears to maintain a more negative outlook regarding the citizens around him, I really don't find it too surprising. Indeed, a career working in law enforcement readily ensures that you see a lot more of the ugly underbelly in our society. Add to that the fact that many folks harbor a degree of ill will against structure and authority, I'm sure that atmosphere factors into the mix to negatively color things quite a bit. In many respects, law enforcement is a tough and demanding career, and I think that it is safe to say it's not for everyone. Over the long haul, it must be hard to sustain a positive and upbeat view of the world around you.

To finish up on the stop sign issue, I happen to view rolling through a stop sign as unacceptable. Getting sloppy driving a car and ignoring the rules of the road is a bad recipe that opens the door for some serious problems. To me, it's a much bigger issue than exceeding the speed limit on the freeway. I might be liberal in my view about many things, I guess it doesn't tend to apply when it comes to obeying the rules of the road.
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1158
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
Johnl wrote

Quote:
And if a cop needed physical assistance how many of you would jump in to help him at risk to your own safety? Not many if any.


Johnl...I am surprised that in years as a LEO that you did not witness more of this. I have helped out Highway Patrols and Sheriffs a number of times out on the road (stuck in ditch in a storm, helping at accident scenes, changing tire etc.) Sure, there was not much risk to my own safety. An ex highway patrol friend received lots of help when he was injured at the side of the road.

Would I jump in the middle of a gun fight. Not likely, but, I wouldn't leave a cop dying on the street either. I wouldn't exert any less effort in helping a LEO just because I got a ticket once. I believe most of us would do what we could. It is rather unfair to characterise us as you have.


CBH I applaud your character and I wish that more were like you. Actually in my 29 years as a LEO I had ONE time that that happened for me (and I'm very grateful for it). It saved me from having to shoot somebody. The sad part is that the guy who helped me was gone before I could even thank him. To this day I don't know who he was (other than a very large college student, and I think a football Lineman Smile )

But unfortunately that is not the norm today. However when I was growing up it was the norm. I think it's sad that society has changed in that way...
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1158
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:

To finish up on the stop sign issue, I happen to view rolling through a stop sign as unacceptable. Getting sloppy driving a car and ignoring the rules of the road is a bad recipe that opens the door for some serious problems. To me, it's a much bigger issue than exceeding the speed limit on the freeway. I might be liberal in my view about many things, I guess it doesn't tend to apply when it comes to obeying the rules of the road.


I actually didn't want to go all crazy about the stop sign issue. It's really small potatoes Smile But it is an easy example of why people think cops lie. It's more about perspective. YOUR perspective (not you Swchandler, but the "you" of society).

But actually that is the problem with laws. If you make something illegal that a large portion of society feels it shouldn't be (going over the speed limit on the freeway for example) then people will disobey it. On a regular basis. My personal opinion is that this develops a tendency in many to disobey laws. They feel it is up to them to decide if it is actually illegal, not what the government has decided.
Examples. Alcohol during the prohibition, Marijuana in common times, or bans/seizing guns if Obama has his way. Unless society as a whole is behind the law, it will be disobeyed on a regular basis. I think this causes problems in society since people get used to disobeying the laws. Better to have fewer laws that people actually on the whole obey.... Cool

Oh yeah, when it comes to the majority of traffic laws it is better to look at them as "rules of the road" as one of my judges said. If you break them and get caught, expect to be fined. But it's not like it's a criminal activity (remember I said most traffic laws, there are some that are) and doesn't make you a bad person if you break one or two Rolling Eyes


Last edited by johnl on Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13998

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
Spend enough years on the road and the odds are that you will end up with a bogus stop by police. I have had three, one ticket I didn't fight at age 16 ... he didn't know the law).

If there is no opposing traffic in sight, and there is a clear field if view, I will roll a stop. A cop ticketing someone in this situation is only working on his quota.

I've had a few clearly bogus stops and a couple of stops which were technically justified but "anti-safety" (e.g., speeding very briefly to escape a specific safety threat to me and/or others). I've had a couple more cases of officers ignorant of the law. And I've had/seen a few cases of officers whose anger over a minor or even purely technical violation was WAY out of line, even to the degradation of public safety.

A few things I've learned from those incidents include:
1. Fight every ticket, regardless of its validity. Otherwise it takes only a couple of honest, very brief, mistakes to hit wallet, insurance, and/or license.

2. Watch my speedometer far more closely than I watch traffic. I've never had a chargeable accident, but have seen some really egregious overzealous enforcement examples that got other drivers in serious trouble and got me some really silly stops or even tickets. Until ya ram someone, your license is threatened more by minor speeding tickets than by inherently risky driving.

3. Hope #2 doesn't harm someone some day.

4. Cops are not lawyers, and cannot know all the laws. I still refuse to believe that even in the draconian state of CA, it's illegal to [whatever] just because there's no sign specifically permitting [whatever]. And I've seen judges not only throw out some tickets but reprimand the issuing officer in court or later for issuing the ticket in the first place.

But I still believe I'd rush to assist an officer who clearly needed help, probably more quickly than I would a civilian, simply because the cop is more likely to be the good guy in a fight. I'm incensed about the rules they apparently work under and the public's disregard for the threat and BS they must endure on the job. In my ignorant opinion, they owe the public not one hangnail in any physical confrontation with a bad actor.

I never roll a stop. It's too easy for even a sleepy cop a block away to determine, without any electronics, whether my wheels stopped turning. It's also a bad habit which doesn't save us two seconds. Make 'em work a little harder for their pay; let the tailgating, stop-rolling, 11-over (1-over in school zones), weaving, drinking, red-light-cheating, texting, draq-racing, book-reading, wide-turning, gun-waving, lights-off, unthinking dumb masses fill their quotas.
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bajaDean



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 843
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnl wrote:

Funny, Mac, isn't the President the highest representative of government? Yet he lies. And I'm not even referring to Obama. Pick one. I'm sure in the last 10 - 20 years, every one has lied to the public at some time.

I did want to address the "brotherhood issue". Many if not all of you have no idea what that is like. Let me try a little to explain. Most police are disliked by the public. After all, everybody has had some bad encounter with a cop (got a ticket or something) right? And if a cop needed physical assistance how many of you would jump in to help him at risk to your own safety? Not many if any. Yet this is something police officers do EVERY day for each other. It's a way of life. They are your brothers and sisters cause they are the only ones making sure you come home safe. Nobody else. Then comes the time when one of them crosses the line and you witness it. Something I'm glad I never had to see. What do you do? Report your brother/sister? Maybe they just made a mistake, maybe they are having a bad day, who knows. If you report them, then of course other officers think less of you and MAYBE might be a bit slow to respond to assist you. But if you don't report them, then you are also crossing the line by not doing so.

It would be nice if it was black and white, but in reality it is gray and a very difficult thing for officers. Fortunately the hiring process is much better than it was 30+ years ago when most cops were ex military. Now they come from all walks of life and are all a little different. I think because of this, the quality of most police departments is better now than before.

That being said, you still get bad apples in every walk of life. Police are no different. The recent manhunt for the ex-LAPD officer a prime example, he went WAY wrong. So the question is how the heck did he get past the polly and psych exams? I don't have an answer.

And as to Rodney and other such things you see on TV. Keep in mind the TV companies edit the stuff to show what THEY want you to see to help their ratings and their views. I've had first had experience with this. I arrested an NBC camerman once for not leaving a restricted area after I told him about 10+ times. The video on TV showed me coming up to him real fast then a shuffle with the camera on the ground and then him hitting the ground next to the camera. The UNCUT video showed me with my hands in my pockets (something I shouldn't have done, but was very relaxed) telling him several times to turn around. When he failed to comply I arrested him and he of course resisted (not by fighting, just by not doing what he was told).

I got completely investigated for this and at a time my job was at risk. What really saved me was the cameraman's statement. He wrote I told him several times to leave and he could tell I was getting upset, THEN he turned on the camera. Which was exactly what happened. I guess I was lucky he didn't lie......

Soapbox off..... Rolling Eyes


Thanks for addressing the brotherhood issue from what I see very honestly which is hard for one to do.. As we know not many officers would admit that if they do break the brotherhood there are consequences. This is what is human nature. Again this is what the burned to death officer was dealing with, he would not allow police abuse is his claim and from what I see the brotherhood showed what they will do to one of their own should they ever dare cross them in any way. There are very corrupt officers who these same officers would protect because they did not break the brotherhood oath.

Now, it is natural that authoritarians naturally gravitate to enforcement jobs. Just as geeks gravitate to technical jobs. It is also a shame that we actually make judges, prosecutors, lawyers, police and so on dependent on fines to subsidize our enforcement agencies because of under-funding these agencies. This pits our police against the people they are hired to serve and protect more than needed in cases like traffic court to keep their jobs and pay. If I had my way just like some cities have parking meter enforcement people I would remove the traffic enforcement from police to remove this conflict from people.

From what I understand of your position is breaking a law of any kind is not acceptable to a degree and so I assume even forgetting to pay the parking meter with enough money is a gateway crime too.

The human factors of rolling stops is proven in baja Mexico to be safe, efficient and optimizes human factors. There is no reason for the USA to insist on a needless inefficient regulation. We spend thousands and millions on figuring out optimizing intersection light patterns to optimize efficient traffic flow to minimize wasting energy and time. This stop sign nonsense has to stop. Or are Americans not as smart as Mexicans to figure this out?


As far as helping a policeman, I did not see all policemen heading over to Afghanistan either to help our soldiers. And no, I was never trained to handle a shooting situation so asking me to do so is absolutely absurd when I do not have a weapon too. Now if a policeman was in a scuffle in a bar restaurant and so on and was not winning or having a problem and no guns are at play, I would have that officers back in a nanosecond. But I am an former linebacker, wrestler (does former chess champion help too?) and would not hold it against others for not stepping in.
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bajaDean



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 843
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

note the right wing owned media does not cite these to shut the right wingers up...

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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13998

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnl wrote:
I actually didn't want to go all crazy about the stop sign issue. It's really small potatoes

Not when it reflects or becomes a habit and/or a general and overriding disregard for traffic laws and/or safety. I suspect, with no professional background to back it up, that routine rolling stops lead to busting red lights, which escalates the risk dramatically. Then there are tailgaiting (the leading cause of wrecks nationwide most years, and a behavior I will not tolerate), inattention*, sleep deprivation (a major contributor), etc. As simply a long-time observant "civilian" driver, rolling stops strike me as just the tip of an iceberg of careless driving behaviors -- an overriding attitude -- likely to bite people in the butt sooner rather than later.

* CBS commentator Andy Rooney once seriously suggested reading books while commuting because "What else is there to do with our brains while driving?" Remind me not to drive on the same roads with him or the 100 million idiot drivers like him; both of my brain cells are so swamped with driving that I not only can't focus on a "book on CD", I forget it's even in the slot. I traffic, I don't even know there's another person in the car talking to me. Any lesser focus on most driving conditions is a wreck waiting to happen.

I was driving < 25 on a suburban street, having just left the last stop in no hurry. A dimwit stopped at her cross-street stop sign, looked me in the eye, then pulled right out into my path. I slid 6 feet (this was before anti-lock brakes) before broad-siding her. Those 6 feet saved her from being crushed, maybe killed, as my front end ended up parked in her back seat, my fender brushed against the back of her driver seat. It totaled her new 1966 Buick, which was probably [hyperbole alert!] built of 1/4" steel plate. She laughed about it, but the cop who saw the whole thing didn't, and her insurance company French kissed my butt until I signed a medical waiver months later after I was certain I was completely uninjured.

Why didn't I swerve behind her onto the sidewalk? Because it was covered with school kids. Neither their immediate presence nor the uniformed policeman standing in the middle of the street in her line of sight was enough to make this idiot think about what she was doing.

I'd love to spend a year as a traffic cop. I took a great deal of perverse pleasure, and directly caused a long-lasting decrease in violations, in ticketing scofflaws on an Air Force base. Ditto in chairing a statewide racing commission, which included disciplining cheaters, and in many other venues. To a significant extent, taking care of small potatoes keeps otherwise responsible people in line and thus much safer, letting officials focus more resources on more serious crimes and really aggressive or otherwise dangerous drivers. I've always been super-observant of laws in town, but it took nitpicking like that to slow me down on empty rural highways where it's just me and the deer.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4012

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baja Dean, the difference between those and Bengazi are, the administration pumped false information just days before a national election. The other difference is the battle went on for 7-8 hours with zero effort to save the Navy Seals.

I'm definitely not a fan of GWB, but two wrongs don't make a right.
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1158
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bajaDean wrote:


From what I understand of your position is breaking a law of any kind is not acceptable to a degree and so I assume even forgetting to pay the parking meter with enough money is a gateway crime too.

The human factors of rolling stops is proven in baja Mexico to be safe, efficient and optimizes human factors. There is no reason for the USA to insist on a needless inefficient regulation. We spend thousands and millions on figuring out optimizing intersection light patterns to optimize efficient traffic flow to minimize wasting energy and time. This stop sign nonsense has to stop. Or are Americans not as smart as Mexicans to figure this out?



Hmm, I don't know if I said that. BUT ask yourself. What is the point in even having a law if it isn't obeyed and enforced? If not nothing but a waste of time. And a parking meter is not even close to a law. It's a parking regulation. And if you forget to put money in it and get a ticket, pay attention more next time and just pay the ticket. But I'm laughing if you think there is any criminal intent there for not putting enough in the meter.....

As to comparing Baja Mexico traffic to US traffic, are you CRAZY??? Comparing a basic VERY rural area to areas with high concentration of vehicles? Yeah if I lived out in Bo-Dunk USA I'm sure traffic regulations would not make that much different to the 100 of us that live there. But I'm sure comparing that to a place with high population would be a joke. (think of Calif. It is basically one city from San Fernando to San Diego). Do you really think this is apples vs apples? Or more like apples vs. a fruit on mars.....
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