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the big lie "the media is liberal"
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3356

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To add to johns insightful post above:
You are supposed to stop behind the sign and then roll forward and stop to check for traffic if you can't see from there. So many people break this rule that most cops just let it go.
The world looks a lot different from the front seat of a police car. More than half of the cars are rolling signs, speeding, turning without signals, failing to give right of way, tailgating and often don't even know it.
I have pointed this out to folks as a passenger in their cars and they deny it while doing it right then and there.
In college my roommates were police officers so I rode with them on occasion.
Quite an education. Not an easy job and you get little positive feedback from those you serve and protect.
Kudos to you for putting up with it.

Once I turned left at 5 mins to 4 o'clock at a sign that said no left turn 4 to 6.
Cop made me sit in the car for five minutes while he did paperwork and handed me the ticket. I pointed out that my watch said 1minute to 4 as he handed it to me. He pointed to the clock on his dash and it turned to 4 as we watched it.
I said OK this is bogus and you just proved it.
He said ticket is written I never change them. In court he flat denied the truth.
I lost my liscense since that was my last point remaining. Never forgot him.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5816

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnl, I let it go the first time you seemingly accused most defendants of lying in court. I realize that many folks aren't candid or honest, and they might lie in a court of law. But, by you pushing it a second time, I have to wonder whether you believe that the accused are assumed to be innocent until proven guilty. As we all know, the prosecutor must present a sound and convincing case to both the judge and jury.

Regarding stopping at stop signs, I always stop. As a result, I've never had a problem. It's pretty simple really, you just follow the law. In my experience, I find that most folks actually do stop at stop signs. Needless to say though, I've seen folks blatantly run through stop signs. When they do, I'm fully behind the police and their enforcement efforts on this.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3356

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I grew up at a busy corner and saw most folks roll the stop for 15 years.
Have you ever tried spending twenty minutes watching a stop sign?
The reality of this was just as John said. More than once as a passenger discussing this the driver who agreed with Chandler rolled the stop during the debate. Very Happy
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bajaDean



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 922
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnl wrote:

More important, you would be surpised (my opinion based on your posts) how few police lie. Think about it. You spend 1/2 of a year suffering in the academy with usually over a 50% dropout just to "hit the streets" as a trainee. Then another 3 - 6 months training, and then on probabtion for 12 - 24 months just to be a "regular" cop. Do you really think it is worth all that time and effort just to lie on the stand where if you get caught at it your job and career is over? Not very likely. I would like to say there aren't any cops that would do this, but the reality is there are probably some who do.

BUT what really happens and this cracks me up is that the "suspect" actually is wrong and therefore thinks the cop is lying. For an example. Go sit at a stop sign and watch people. 90% will not stop. Remember a stop is the COMPLETE lack of motion of the car (in other words the tires not turning) for a time period. Make it 2 seconds. 90% of the people would roll through at a low speed but if you ask them they will swear they stopped. So when the cop testifies that they didn't stop, they say the cop is lying and actually believe it. Personally I gave them about 5 - 8 mph before I would stop them. And they still accused me of lying Smile

The reason is perception. If you are sitting still, not driving, and doing nothing but watching for traffic violations, your observations are far more accurate than somebody who is multitasking by driving, looking at traffic, playing with the phone, playing with the radio, eating, putting on makeup, (the list goes on and on).

But most people don't even consider this because they are never wrong so the cop must by lying. I know this is a little off topic, but it is one of my pet pieves when people accuse cops of lying. 99% of the time it just isn't so. FAR less than the percentage of defendants who lie all the time....

By the way cops and defendants take the exact same oath when they testify. So why do the defendants think it is okay for them to lie?



Hmm, as I said it was only a few, but the more important thing I was talking about is the brotherhood of protecting even one bad apple. This is the issue the I had with the recent event that he was alleging. And this is nationwide and is systemic but worse in some areas than others. Again you blew by a major point I made, the ex-officer made some points if true are very disturbing from my point of view. One being that the officer we see in the video kicking and beating Rodney King was ever promoted there are some people who need to be fired, a policeman who ever did such a crime should never be promoted to as alleged supervising over 200 policeman.

Then another of his allegations is he witnessed a officer dishing out street justice and he reported it which is "not allowed by the unwritten code" and he was penalized for in essence by the "Sirpico" whistleblower of the events. The system in that area just does not allow honest policemen. But again I allege there is a brotherhood of police that is more powerful than a single honest policeman. and yes because we do not have a liberal media this officer could go to to expose this he went McVeigh.

Next example of the brotherhood in enforcement and systemic racism. There are/were several lawsuits alleging racism in the secret service (SS) about 10 years ago. Part of the lawsuit was that the SS would go on re-treats in some southern state on US taxpayers dime and in these drunken episodes the agents would have black effigies hanging from the trees and the agents would be wearing white hoods at these events. And to get promoted you had to be part of this racist brotherhood. What was interesting in the proceedings the defense the SS did not dispute thise issues or that racist jokes were sent around by agents as a norm. Including when they had to provide SS protection for Jessie Jackson when he was running for president how some of the agents would send an email when they were providing him with protection that said they wished someone would off him and his family. Again these were not disputed facts, the SS only disputed that black officers were not discriminated against in promotions, yet there were none at the top or near the top. In the real world there in NOT a single non-racist company in the world where if you were sending racist jokes you would not be terminated after one incident like this. One of those known racist SS officers was on the Obama protection detail, he was transferred when Obama took office, not fired as I would have done. I would have fired every single white officer who ever went on one of those retreats or allowed a racist joke to be emailed between agents. Yep I would have broke up that brotherhood. and if I was the liberal media it would have been front page stuff for years.

Also as far a lying we have a supreme court justice who lied under oath and the right wing owned media did not take him to task. He even admitted it to the guy who wrote the book attacking the innocent truth telling anita hill. Read the book by former top right wing paid hit man Brook Brock who finally got a conscience and outed the lies of the right wing. Read "blinded by The Right" . We have supreme court justices that can not even see a conflict of interest and recuse themselves when the son of the person who appointed them put them on the bench. This too is an honesty-liar issue to me.

Yes and people lie all the time, males about 2 times a day females 1 time a day. Hey when the significant other asks if she looks good in a certain pair of her favorite shoes and you do not like those shoes of course one is going to lie. That is a lie to protect someones feelings. I have also read the best liars are the ones who eventually make the highest incomes like salespeople in at least our society.

And yes there is a degree and by whom is lying and their position, do you want priests lying? I think we can see a Pope is paying the price for their brotherhood of lying right now. Is a lie to go to war a bigger offense than a lie to protect ones family in a personal matter that has nothing to do with the office?

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/brain-and-behavior/articles/2009/05/18/were-all-lying-liars-why-people-tell-lies-and-why-white-lies-can-be-ok

Hey I am down in baja, when are we going to get with the plan, rolling stops are legal here and save so much gas and are so much more efficient for time. So it is a existing proven safe driving system. My insurance is a fraction of the cost of the USA if that is a decent correlation. I do have a hard time remembering not to roll them in the USA when I go back.


Last edited by bajaDean on Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5816

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Have you ever tried spending twenty minutes watching a stop sign? "


I happen to live a house over from a four way stop sign where I can see everything out my living room windows, and it is incredible how many folks literally drive through with hardly even slowing down. But I live in a gated community, so there are no cops and no consequences for disobeying the posted traffic signs. Would those same folks blow-off stop signs on city streets? I'm sure some of them would, but I think that the threat of getting a costly ticket, to include the possibility of a higher insurance premium for years, will keep many at bay and within the boundary of the law. It's all about risk, desire and threat of punishment. How many good citizens would steal things if they felt that no one was looking? Probably more than you think.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5207

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John--thoughtful posts, but I think you are missing an important point. Police officers are representatives of the government, and held to a higher standard (and paid much more than average) in the performance of their duties.

I went to college in Berkeley in the late 1960's, and I observed riots created by the anarchists that tend to hang around the fringes of social movements--but also by the CHP, one of the most respected police forces we have in the state. At that time, public safety issues overwhelmed the City of Berkeley and they brought in Alameda County sheriffs, which were notorious for their brutality. Those guys covered up their badges, and I had a friend convicted of a felony--throwing a brick at one of them--on perjured testimony. He had been in his apartment, and someone caught up in the riot knocked on the door and asked to wash tear gas out of her eyes. She was in the bathroom when they broke down the door and beat him up. So they didn't even get the gender right.

We have also had significant problems with the Oakland police, both in acting as a quasi-army of occupation, and in slip-shod investigative work that has led to criminals being able to evade prosecution.

But with that said, most of the policemen I've know, by a fairly wide margin, were civil servants interested in public service. They cope pretty well with a job that is often boring, and occasionally very scary. Some of that is due to changes we insisted on as a result of the 60's--better training, a police force that better reflects the ethnic nature of the community, and so forth.

But with that said, you know as well as I do that some people joing the police force to have power over other people. Some cities and counties do a good job of screening these types out, or managing them during probation so their behavior is responsible, some don't. I'm sure that the cops who busted my friend in his apartment were convinced that he, not the girl in the bathroom, had thrown the brick. I'm sure that most of the cases where police lie, or doctor their stories to have multiple officers provide the same story, involve people well known to the police, who have committed a crime, even if not that one. We know that more than 90% of people that go to trial on felonies are convicted, and the miscarriages are relatively rare. Yet they do occur, and that is exactly the reason we should expect police to be fundamentally honest, even if most people aren't.
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1170
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
johnl, I let it go the first time you seemingly accused most defendants of lying in court. I realize that many folks aren't candid or honest, and they might lie in a court of law. But, by you pushing it a second time, I have to wonder whether you believe that the accused are assumed to be innocent until proven guilty. As we all know, the prosecutor must present a sound and convincing case to both the judge and jury.

Regarding stopping at stop signs, I always stop. As a result, I've never had a problem. It's pretty simple really, you just follow the law. In my experience, I find that most folks actually do stop at stop signs. Needless to say though, I've seen folks blatantly run through stop signs. When they do, I'm fully behind the police and their enforcement efforts on this.


You let this go? Really, how much time have you spent in court? Maybe my 90% was a tad high, probably more like 50%. Keep in mind some don't make any statement, so of course don't lie. Some because of their perception is wrong, but they aren't lying because they actually believe it. Then there are some when the cop is wrong, and the defendant tells the truth and the judge decides. Then there are those who know they are guilty and feel it is their part to lie. Keep in mind, this isn't just traffic court, try criminal, and civil court proceedings. It's really amazing now many just lie in court. And the really sad thing is it is also amazing how funny some of the lies are. They are just bogus....

And innocent till proven guilty has NOTHING to do with being dishonest in court. One is a state of law, the other is dishonesty. Two unrelated concepts.

I could also totally dispute your claim about the "sound and convincing case" since that isn't always it either. I was a baliff in one trial of a DUI that was totally slam dunk, in fact the defendent testified and it was so bogus that the people in the audience were laughing. Well one jury member didn't want to be responsible so they had a hung jury. And that was a simple DUI, not even a complex trial.

On TV and on paper trials sound good, but in reality, it's more of a power show between the prosecutor and the defense attorney. Who ever puts on the better show wins.... I know I'm biased, but try being a baliff in a courtroom for 5 years, 5 days a week hearing testimony and trial after trial. It's really sad....
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1170
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
John--thoughtful posts, but I think you are missing an important point. Police officers are representatives of the government, and held to a higher standard (and paid much more than average) in the performance of their duties.


Funny, Mac, isn't the President the highest representative of government? Yet he lies. And I'm not even referring to Obama. Pick one. I'm sure in the last 10 - 20 years, every one has lied to the public at some time.

I did want to address the "brotherhood issue". Many if not all of you have no idea what that is like. Let me try a little to explain. Most police are disliked by the public. After all, everybody has had some bad encounter with a cop (got a ticket or something) right? And if a cop needed physical assistance how many of you would jump in to help him at risk to your own safety? Not many if any. Yet this is something police officers do EVERY day for each other. It's a way of life. They are your brothers and sisters cause they are the only ones making sure you come home safe. Nobody else. Then comes the time when one of them crosses the line and you witness it. Something I'm glad I never had to see. What do you do? Report your brother/sister? Maybe they just made a mistake, maybe they are having a bad day, who knows. If you report them, then of course other officers think less of you and MAYBE might be a bit slow to respond to assist you. But if you don't report them, then you are also crossing the line by not doing so.

It would be nice if it was black and white, but in reality it is gray and a very difficult thing for officers. Fortunately the hiring process is much better than it was 30+ years ago when most cops were ex military. Now they come from all walks of life and are all a little different. I think because of this, the quality of most police departments is better now than before.

That being said, you still get bad apples in every walk of life. Police are no different. The recent manhunt for the ex-LAPD officer a prime example, he went WAY wrong. So the question is how the heck did he get past the polly and psych exams? I don't have an answer.

And as to Rodney and other such things you see on TV. Keep in mind the TV companies edit the stuff to show what THEY want you to see to help their ratings and their views. I've had first had experience with this. I arrested an NBC camerman once for not leaving a restricted area after I told him about 10+ times. The video on TV showed me coming up to him real fast then a shuffle with the camera on the ground and then him hitting the ground next to the camera. The UNCUT video showed me with my hands in my pockets (something I shouldn't have done, but was very relaxed) telling him several times to turn around. When he failed to comply I arrested him and he of course resisted (not by fighting, just by not doing what he was told).

I got completely investigated for this and at a time my job was at risk. What really saved me was the cameraman's statement. He wrote I told him several times to leave and he could tell I was getting upset, THEN he turned on the camera. Which was exactly what happened. I guess I was lucky he didn't lie......

Soapbox off..... Rolling Eyes
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1473

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spend enough years on the road and the odds are that you will end up with a bogus stop by police. I have had three, one ticket I didn't fight at age 16 (my dad's recommendation, I was driving too slow on an LA freeway - there were no minimums at the time and I was going 55); one with no consequence and one where I went to court, but the cop was a no show and the case was tossed (he didn't know the law).

However, overall I do respect the police and the job that they do, and would help one in need, but some occasionally do go off the deep end for one reason or another.

What I appreciate from law enforcement is enforcing the law based upon the spirit of the law. Stop signs, why are they there? To control traffic flow and maintain right of way. If there is no opposing traffic in sight, and there is a clear field if view, I will roll a stop. A cop ticketing someone in this situation is only working on his quota.

By the way, I have never had an accident on a roadway in more than 50 years of driving. Actually, I did have one. I was stopped behind an old lady at a stop sign and she back into me (she said she was too far into the intersection). However, there was no cross traffic.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3356

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chandler I think we are agreeing here. Johnl and I are talking about not noticing one is rolling the sign and you are talking about blowing through it.
As I recall it was rare for someone to just go ignore the stop at my family home, but half of the drivers failed to come to a complete halt behind the sign.
It was speed trap corner but folks would roll the stop sign right in front of the officer.
Duh.
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