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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 3630

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
Not if radical Islam, North Korea, Iran, China, Russia, or ... hell ... Berkeley or Belize ... perceive correctly that we cannot or will not defend ourselves. Of course our DOD should be more efficient (the Rumsfeld doctrine, among others), but massive across the board cuts don't automatically achieve that.

Capetonian, your "pueno sounds intelligent" implies one of two things:
1. You are not.
2. He has changed 1,000% since I had to dump him years ago.


We cannot afford to send our young men into harms way because some tinpot dictator decides to rattle his saber. I've said all along that we should blockade said trouble makers, and I'm for drone strikes and napalm for that matter. But I do not want to see 1 more American killed for corporate imperialistic greed. NO MORE BOOTS ON THE GROUND...
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 4673

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bard--it upsets me immensely to agree with you--but there it is. A careful review of the history of the use of military power by the United States since the Second World War reveals a few successes, but far more failures. So I agree that we should not, without compelling reason, act as the world's cop. I also think we should pay more attention to the strategic disadvantages of mistakes. In the case of Iraq, our underestimates of the nature of the society, and the potential for civil war and insurrection, was a disaster for our world authority and the Iraqui society. We showed that even the modern US military can be bogged down in an urban war, destroyed weaponry, personnel, and money. This has probably resulted in Iran and North Korea being more belligerent. Of course the 3-4 trillion is gone forever, and there is relatively little technological payoff.

There is a new book about the Vietnam War, and the number of attrocities that happened. It does not surprise me that those who return from brutal wars, whether in Vietnam, Afghanistan, or Iraq, to a society where there war skills are not appreciated, suffer disproportionately from substance abuse and mental health issues. With precious little support after the initial thank yous. A sad legacy, particularly from failed wars.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13313

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
NO MORE BOOTS ON THE GROUND...

IF it comes down to it, doesn't that beat boots on OUR soil?

Personally, I'm torn between less involvement (e.g., more genocides, nuclear proliferation, radical Islam expansion and empowerment) and more involvement. I suspect I'd lean more towards the latter if I were much younger or had children. But considering the target on the U.S.'s back, our survival clearly depends on maintaining the most powerful armed forces on earth. That position is very clearly at risk from both without and within our borders.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1849

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Armchair warrior. NO military action should be supported unless the advocate would go himself or send a loved one. Otherwise, supporting the action rings hollow to me.

In this country we don't even suffer by raising taxes to pay for the war while we drive our sport utes around talking on the cell phone. Good grief!

Dude...you need to listen to a couple of Don Henley tunes!
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13313

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
Armchair warrior. NO military action should be supported unless the advocate would go himself or send a loved one. Otherwise, supporting the action rings hollow to me.

Who says I would not go or send? The only thing that kept me out of the skies over Hanoi was my vision, and I put my career at very real risk to help a friend with a young family move out of a weapons development laboratory into a B-52 cockpit on full nuclear alert at the very fringes of the U.S.S.R. You apparently have no idea how many combat veterans I (and my wife) served with, nor of the thin and unpredictable line between me and combat, nor of the fact that I remained at that line voluntarily throughout most of my career.

You?

I never cease to be amazed how much civilians, including media anchors and moguls, think they know about the military. It is painfully obvious how few even comprehend the concept of basic military service, let alone combat. The absolute dumbest comment (relative to its source) I've ever seen on TV came from the head of the BBC.


Last edited by isobars on Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:17 pm; edited 2 times in total
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windoggie



Joined: 22 Feb 2002
Posts: 2210

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
boots on OUR soil?

Red Dawn was a movie iso.
_________________
/w\
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1849

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, Isobars, I did not serve in the military. Frankly, my father forbid it after he served in Korea and his brother returned sin a functional leg from WW2. But, I also did not support the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Fortunately, I was barely too young for Vietnam.

I apopogize if I misunderstood your statement that you would have a different opinion on troops on the ground if you were younger or had children. I do have a sibling in the military (did not listen to Dad) and a brother in law came home wounded from Iraq.

Questioning our involvement in the wars has nothing to do with my respect for servicemen and women. That said, questioning the obvious failures that our military involvement in Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam has yielded is not unpatriotic. While I do not understand military life, I do recognize success. It appears that regardless of the intentions and sacrifices made by our brave soldiers, much of our military involvement on foreign soil in recent times has not been particularily successful.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13313

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
I apopogize if I misunderstood your statement that you would have a different opinion on troops on the ground if you were younger or had children.

My comment was an (inept?) attempt to explain that if I had a greater blood stake in the next decade or three than I do, I'd probably worry even more about what IS coming and what may be coming. Within roughly that single generation I believe we WILL see some level of nuclear war far beyond Hiroshima, "large scale" WMD assaults within US borders, a great loss of personal freedoms, far more egregious and widespread global pressure from both radical Islam and Sharia law, still more genocides, etc. The likely debatables such as Korea, Iran, and China, combined with the suicidal nature of a second-rate U.S. military, and I'd most certainly lean more towards global involvement, at least in self-preservation issues. In fact, nothing turned me off about Ron Paul's platform more than his eagerness to stick Uncle Sam's head in the sand despite its ever-increasing threats from the rest of the world.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 3630

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like I've said many times before, study the strategies of ancient Rome. They starved their enemies, and rarely suffered stagering loses (in the early days!). Once they started adventuring around the globe, they began to suffer great loses.

I have to laugh at the Red Dawn analogy Doggie. In my estimation the enemy is already within the gates. But this is not a Red Dawn moment. It is insane to send our troops to battle in the streets of any dirtbag nation. Starve them into submission. I think a battle worth winning is on the streets of Chicago. Now that would be some battle worth winning. 500 dead in one year, and even more this year than last.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13313

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And in a "gun-free" zone.
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