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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4340

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hopefully China will wise up regarding pollution. However, this will slow the world economy. Make boards, cars, furniture, food, and all other things we use more expensive. Production pollution circulates worldwide none-the-less. Once China cleans up, Vietnam or Korea will step up to the plate. We will still have the same worldwide pollution.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3538

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember reading in a French newspaper thirty years ago that the cleanest industrial Country was the US at that time. They said it was the only country that was actually getting less polluted instead of more.
France was a mess. There was trash by the roads. Coal was used locally as heat.
Smoky soot in small towns as well.
Now they have lots of annoying regulations and inspections that make th US seem unregulated by comparison. The place looks a lot cleaner everywhere.
It is in the nature of good government to adjust the rules we live under as law to the changing needs of the people.
It is in the nature of bad government to keep adding more without taking any away.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5574

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bard--you are showing that a little knowledge, without judgement and reasoning, is dangerous. You are completely wrong on air pollution--a field I've worked in, off and on, for over thirty years. First of all, there are toxic materials that are directly toxic--those include many of the resins used in making thermoplastics like fibreglass and carbon fiber/epoxy boards. We call that acute toxicity, and it can be determined with great precision. Concentration matters, and good quality air movement and/or scrubbing, in an industrial area, protects workers and neighbors. There is no more chance of you being affected by such contaminants resulting from manufacturing in China than there is of you being affected by radiation from Fukushima. I did have to explain diffusion to my daughter when she wanted to move to Wisconsin after the earthquake. So locating a surfboard factory too close to residents, or day care facilities, or schools, poses a direct risk to them. That is why we have zoning and permits, and why we prosecute cheaters. Such facilities in Texas, much less China, pose no risk to California residents, and will probably not affect the average IQ there noticeably.

Second, there are contaminants that pose long-term instead of short-term risks. We call those chronic toxicants, and they are usually carcinogenic. Exposure over months if you are very young, or more likely over years, increases the risk of cancer. The only contaminant from China that poses this risk it mercury--which is released into the atmosphere from their massive burning of coal with traces of mercury. We now find mercury bio-accumulating in fish and piscavores almost everywhere--far from human settlements and industrial activity. Of course along with mercury, burning coal produces lots of carbon dioxide, but many Republicans long for a warmer climate where poor Democrats living in low-lying areas are flooded out. Epoxy manufacturing involves carcinogens.

Finally, you don't seem to know much about the forces of global economics. The US workers have the highest productivity in the world, but that is not enough to overcome the difference in wages for many mass-produced products. Manufacturing has gone overseas because of wages, and the very low cost of shipping (very efficient now in containers), not because of environmental restrictions. You're stepping over dollars to complain about pennies. That doesn't mean that there aren't stupid regulations that need to be changed. It does mean that it takes some understanding to figure out which are stupid, and it won't bring jobs streaming back if the wage difference remains prohibitive. That said, CB's suggestion is a good one.
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2894

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

berkeley wrote:
Of course along with mercury, burning coal produces lots of carbon dioxide, but many Republicans long for a warmer climate where poor Democrats living in low-lying areas are flooded out.

Consumer alert!!! Apparently that 2000 Bordeaux and/ or 2002 Burgundy rots the brain!! Stick with the California stuff.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5574

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hark, the oracle of disinformation on all environmental matters is heard from. Perhaps he is preparing another round of oil company talking points about how to stop worrying and enjoy the sun? Or perhaps he is preparing a spirited defense of the Catholic bishops for their spiritual guidance? Offered in private quarters by priests selected for their warm affection for young boys?

I wait with bated breath.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2765

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikey wrote:
But there's far more to red tape than clean air and water. Many businesses have shut down due to much less sane regulations, which surely must comprise hundreds of the thousands of new regs this administration has imposed behind the scenes. And look what's coming now that both Obama and the EPA have dictatorial control over ANYthing even remotely characterizable as being related to AGW, with or without proof.

Be careful what you wish for, lest you get too much of it. Just look at the huge, almost unanimous blowback on Obamacare as its true nature is exposed, with most physicians and many Democratic congressman recoiling in fear of its impacts.

Mikey, isn't the air inside your fact-free bubble getting rancid and stale these days? Do you have all the essential EPA permits to breath that foul, fact-free air? Is that possibly the cause of your much-touted cancer?

And, before I forget.......... is this the reason for your free government monthly cash handout?
.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14621

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe wrote:
berkeley wrote:
many Republicans long for a warmer climate where poor Democrats living in low-lying areas are flooded out.

Yeah, it would be nice if the globe would heat up and selectively eradicate the moonbats, people sucking fraudulent or unearned entitlements, gays, homophobes, yappy lap dogs, ugly people, Jews, caucasians, illegal aliens, Muslims, church-goers, atheists, substance abusers, smokers, overzealous ex-smokers, Prius owners, ignorant voters, ignorant actors and rock stars, gang bangers, loose dogs at crowded public beaches, unarmed good citizens, rogue nations, most politicians, homicidal maniacs, Al Gore, and Berkeley.

Unfortunately, the planet is not warming up rapidly enough to do any of that, man cannot halt what little warming may be occurring before nature chooses to freeze our asses off and kill FAR more people than warming does, and not even the tens of trillions the idiot UN wants the U.S. to pay in reparations blackmail will affect the earth's temperature by the end of the century by more than an immeasurable fraction of a degree. That, from the world's climate and sociological experts such as Lomborg, whose Copenhagen findings STILL trump the entire intellectual, credibility, and honesty quotient of the entire city of Berkeley and the entire Obama media armada.

See http://tinyurl.com/9wzbsre , for example.
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windoggie



Joined: 22 Feb 2002
Posts: 2409

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for spelling Berkeley correctly.
_________________
/w\
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4340

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might not have dawned on the"progresssives", but China is growing at 8% and we are shrinking at -.1%. THIS IS WAR. If this continues, in 20 years, we will be broke, and they will have the biggest military on the planet. They will pollute at will. They will consume at will. They will dominate the world political stage. And they will bully us as we become defenseless.

We need to grow revenue with economic growth. Not taxing the 1%. This will send us down the rabbit hole of poverty.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 6030

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given the fact that the Obama Administration has been advocating for a strong Asian/Pacific foreign policy stance in the future, I'm thinking that you might feel some synergy in that direction. Many have criticized President Obama for taking some of the spotlight off the Middle East and expanding our interests in Asia, but I think it's warranted. Based on recent N.I.E. findings, it's been found that the Chinese have been actively intruding into our cyberspace hoping to gain advantage for the future. It will be interesting how things unfold on this important issue.
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