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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4115

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would suggest a prayer to whatever you fell the need to pray to. Atheists may pray to the cash in their pocket for all I care. The idea is that we are not the center of the universe.

BTW Mac, what you refer to is Dogma, not spirituality. After having experienced the evil nuns as you have, I do not point to any specific way to pray. Just the need to reflect and take in all the possibilities. There is a missing spirituality in society I fear.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3554
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In about a month I will be praying to the Gods of Davenport, hopefully to will be joining me Smile
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5218

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bardo--I don't know that the Mother Superior in my grade school was evil, just sick and twisted. Hard to know why, but it was part of that Irish Catholic stuff. Now the abusing priests, yes. And with 50% of the priests not practicing celibacy, and the organized church protecting the abusers not the abused, the Catholic hierarchy has been systematically evil.

Nobody raises any concerns about a moment of silence, at the beginning of the day, or at the passing of a friend. And a moment of silence, being non-denominational, does not fall afoul of the establishment clause. Someone can pray--or daydream. As someone who is horrified by what the organized Catholic church did systematically, and by much of what happens in evangelical churches, or Mormon dogma, or the nuttier versions of Islam, the idea of picking any particular form of religion or prayer, even without the Establishment clause, is just nuts.

I also need to respond on abortion, where your response was completely over the top. I decided many years ago that, whatever the law, I could not be in a situation where abortion was under consideration. So I was responsible for my own reproductive consequences. I have an adopted daughter, and another. But my moral authority ends there, with my own decisions. I do not have the moral authority to mandate my own views on someone who doesn't share them. The Supreme Court decision on Roe v. Wade, which you might try reading, treats the decision about whether or not to have an abortion as a matter between a woman and her doctor. You are free to pray for any particular woman, or women in general, to make a decision that you believe is right. I have adopted, in an open adoption, a baby and I am eternally grateful to the birth mother for making a decision not to have an abortion, and to pick my wife and I to raise the child. two of my grandchildren were born two months prematurely, one with significant disabilities. As a medical, and legal matter, I do not believe that an embryo is the same as a viable fetus. You are free to disagree with that, and you are free to support political candidates that you hope will eventually overturn Roe v. Wade. But you are not free, under current law, to impose that view on another person.

Of course, support for contraception, given what we know about human nature and sexuality in the young, and making sure that abortions, if they occur, happen very early, is a much better idea. That would please us both by reducing the number of abortions, and the number of late term abortions. But the religious right and the Catholic Church have fought contraception, and have tried to create impediments to abortion that are ending up with more, and later term abortions in many cases. So I am unpursuaded by their moral authority on these matters.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4115

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We again do not disagree by much. Sex selection and late term abortion are sickening to me. However, I'm not protesting for criminalization in the 1st trimester. I mentioned counceling prior to making any decision would be nice.

Glad to see you have a heart Mac. The act of adoption is an incredible sacrifice in both directions. We have adopted kids in our family. Adoption should be made easier and less expensive IMO.

Boggs, I finally sailed Davenport the summer before last on that really big swell. The channel was closing out, but I finally got the nerve to venture out. What a day for a 1st time experience. Save a wave for me. We have our own spot down here, but it's not quite as open as Davenport.
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 1945
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
I would suggest a prayer to whatever you fell the need to pray to. Atheists may pray to the cash in their pocket for all I care. The idea is that we are not the center of the universe.

BTW Mac, what you refer to is Dogma, not spirituality. After having experienced the evil nuns as you have, I do not point to any specific way to pray. Just the need to reflect and take in all the possibilities. There is a missing spirituality in society I fear.


So you were restricting your suggestion of school prayer to individual, private prayer while suggesting prayer alongside creationism? I find that a suspect pairing, but I'm happy to take your word for it.

To that end, there is no restriction allowed on private, individual prayer. None. At all. Whatsoever. Moreover, students can gather in groups to pray privately and also can form prayer clubs, scripture-study clubs and even host after-hours worship services at the school as long as he school places no restriction on any religion from using the space. The kids can pray with faculty and staff if part of an after-school club.

The constant harping on public school prayer derives from basic misunderstandings on the part of parents mostly and school administrators very rarely.

There is prayer in school before each algebra test, but there can be no school sponsored prayer. Rotating through different prayers led by students under the direction of the school is too great an entanglement to satisfy the Establishment Clause.

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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5218

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bard--I do read you pretty carefully, since mrgybe abandoned credibility and iso is plain nuts. You have been pretty reasonable about gun control, and have pointed out that assault weapons are a bigger symbol than the main problem. So I appreciate your viewpoint, even when I don't agree with it, and like that you have calmed down in expressing it. If the Republican party had your views on abortion, they would not have lost the women's vote by such a large margin. Like I said, I could never support abortion as an individual option--but that leads me, as a man, to responsibility--not to making the decision for the women in my life.
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nw30



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 1706
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dorner is cooked.
All done, as you know, he's a pork rind by now, and I was lucky enough to watch it on the tube.
The entire thing reminded me of the last shoot out/stand off of the LAPD, and the SLA (the Symbionese Liberation Army) in south central LA, back in 1974 . The guys that kidnapped Patty Hearst, and robbed banks, Cinque (sp) being the leader, along with his 'lieutenants', trapped and surrounded by the LAPD in a house, in south central LA, got to see that one also.
Tear gas, fire, and they all burned up. But from what I understand, a tear gas canister, by it's self, won't cause a fire by its design, it needs an excellerant for that to happen, gas or kerosene pored around first, or something like that.
Just saying.
Bottom line, it's over (hopefully, in case some other weird thing happens).

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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14166

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nw30 wrote:
Dorner is cooked.

Sounds like you were watching the genuine news network. BSNBC probably hasn't figured out yet that that unexplained fire they saw yesterday was Dorner's funeral pyre.

From the LAT: "Just before 5 p.m., authorities smashed the cabin's windows, pumped in tear gas and called for the suspect to surrender. They got no response. Then, using a demolition vehicle, they tore down the cabin's walls one by one. When they reached the last wall, they heard a gunshot, officials said, and then the cabin burst into flames. Los Angeles Police Chief Charlie Beck said he would not consider the manhunt over until a body was identified as Dorner."

Yet the BSNBC "Hairball" broadcast I summarized Tue evening occurred AFTER all that.

Wonder if BSNBC is supporting the (tens of?) thousands of people who openly SUPPORT Dorner's rampage as a legitimate form of protest.

Wonder is every last one of them lives in CA and/or recently attended an Ivy League school.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3554
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GE just sold their remaining stake in NBC to Comcast. Righty wingnuts can longer blame Jeff Imelt and his GE in trying to shape policy via NBC. Go think up another wacked out conspiracy. And speaking of Biazarre...did anyone catch Doogie Houser's sweatathon response to the SOTU?
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4115

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just bought a ton of GE stock 2 months ago!!!Schwinnggg!
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