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Gun Nuts
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1182
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
johnl wrote:
You don't shoot to wound, and you don't point to scare. That just doesn't work, and most of the time ends up with the perp just taking your gun....

But how do we know until the crap hits the fan? Massad Ayood sez, "It's better to have a gun and not need it than to need one and not have it" ... but I'll bet he lives in a very different environment than I do.


Well nothing against Ayood, but some people just don't have it in them to take a human life. But they feel the need for protection so they buy a gun thinking that will give them courage. A gun in the hand of a person not prepared (which means you have actually sat down and thought this out) to take a life is actually at a disadvantage.

Criminals HAVE had guns pointed at them before. They are much better prepared to judge if the person will pull the trigger. Also in the joint they have worked out strategies to get the person off guard and distracted when they sense they are not prepared to pull the trigger and will take the gun away. And this is just the tip of the iceburg. Without actually practicing shoot/no shoot scenarios the person with the gun tends to hesitate.

So a gun in the hands of somebody not prepared to use it is NOT a good thing for them or for anybody else.... Better to have a baseball bat or something that they WILL use.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3457

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been there John?
You are right on the money. People who think otherwise have been watching too much TV. They think they are ready to shoot to save a life or themselves but only in movies is the situation clear cut and the danger a sure thing.
You will get shot, maybe with your own gun.
Or you will kill a harmless person and your life will divide in two parts.
The bright days before you killed that guy with the empty gun, and the dark days after for the rest of your life.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1363

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meanwhile, the innocent young victim who was indiscriminately murdered on the streets of Chigago (the 42nd this year alone) for no reason other than some macho gun wielding thug felt like 'bigging himself up', has had her young life stolen and extinguished.

So who now sheds a tear for her?

Madness!
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14321

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnl wrote:
isobars wrote:
But how do we know until the crap hits the fan?

A gun in the hand of a person not prepared (which means you have actually sat down and thought this out) to take a life is actually at a disadvantage.
Without actually practicing shoot/no shoot scenarios the person with the gun tends to hesitate. So a gun in the hands of somebody not prepared to use it is NOT a good thing


I've thought it out a great deal, and may have even acted upon it decades ago (I'll never know) in a life-threatening self defense situation. But as you know, we never know how we're going to feel after the first time regardless of how severe the threat was at the time. I'm also aware of the 21-foot distance an aggressor can cover within a trained LEO's 1.5-second draw'n'double-tap time even without undue hesitation. Now I understand why most law enforcement agencies train their officers that knife-wielding perps are dangerous even to themselves, let alone bystanders, at 32-50 feet; that leaves no room for hesitation, since even a double-tapped man can often keep coming for a few seconds.

Martin's "Concealed Carry and Home Defense Fundamentals" says that a victim's display of his weapon ends most violent crimes because "most criminals want to leave the scene with the same number of holes they came with". (I suspect that's optimistic for the reasons you cited.) OTOH, the book also points out that displaying a gun also escalates the incident, leaving the victim open to prosecution as the aggressor.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1363

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rest in peace Hadlyn.

Though it's little consolation to you or your grieving family not everyone is blind to human empathy, or unable to see the wood for the trees.

As a parting shot (non destructive) perhaps President Obama may be the right person to help reign in the runaway gun culture, which is taking things to third world levels. Those of us from over here hope so. The world needs a strong but civilised America, not the wild west!
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5358

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, and largely intelligent discussion about the hazards of guns, the difficulty most people have in shooting to kill, and the development of a gun culture in the U. S. that is just crazy. It is also interesting to think about how schizo the knee jerk reaction of the right about guns and the military is, and how inconsistent it is with the original Constitution. Interesting review in the January 28 New Yorker about the kerfuffle on the military budget. Written by Jill Lepore, with this fascinating paragraph:

Quote:
Early Americans considered a standing army—a permanent army kept even in times of peace—to be a form of tyranny. “What a deformed monster is a standing army in a free nation,” Josiah Quincy, of Boston, wrote in 1774. Instead, they favored militias. About the first thing Henry Knox did when he became George Washington’s War Secretary was to draft a plan for establishing a uniform militia.

Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2013/01/28/130128crat_atlarge_lepore#ixzz2JluJWIwn


When the Second Amendment was adopted, the distrust of a standing military in the central government was the reason behind that amendment, establishing State and local militias as a counterforce to that potential threat. Now we have a central military supported without question or scrutiny by the far right, despite the warnings of one of our greatest generals, Eisenhower--while they have also warped the meaning of the Second Amendment to be a right to bear arms independent of the plain language, which makes that right a part of establishing militias. True beliefs among those in the bubble are now 180 degrees away from the discussion when the Second Amendment was adopted.

But the nuts will be nutty.
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2407

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here, I'd listen to John...
Practical experience and in the business.
Towards the end, when legal stuff hit the fan, I questioned the whole shebang.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14321

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zirtaeb wrote:
Here, I'd listen to John...
Practical experience and in the business.

All the books I'm reading are written and reviewed by world-famous, often legendary, cops, shooters, trainers, and/or police psychiatrists -- that was one criterion in my selection -- and the guys teaching the courses I'm taking have credentials like John's and are nationally ranked tactical competitive shooters, so I have to weigh all the advice I can find.

My or others' life and/or freedom may depend on the decisions I make.

Meanwhile, guns, ammo, and concealed carry permit applications are running about 400% above normal in my area, with the price of AR-15's having tripled lately; the latters last less than an hour on the local True Value Hardware Store racks. That's what happens when tyrants threaten our freedom for no sane, proven reason.
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2407

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've read most of the mid '70's books. Took the 2 week Gunsite class...ok, 10 days. Read most of the gun magazines for 5 years.
Still, EVERY shooter, legitimate or otherwise, goes to jail or is prosecuted.
Are you ready for that?
It's a decision you have to make for yourself.
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windoggie



Joined: 22 Feb 2002
Posts: 2406

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:

others' life and/or freedom may depend on the decisions I make.



Um...I'll pass. Thanks for thinking of me though.

_________________
/w\
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