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Gun Nuts
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NickB



Joined: 30 Jun 2009
Posts: 498
Location: Alameda, CA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DanWeiss wrote:
These drills should be designed not to scare but to train in a warm and welcoming environment. You don't need searing heat, smoke and pumper trucks to create an effective fire drill.


Dan, I partially agree with you (re: the special CT context, no need to traumatize further), however from experience I'm all for realistic drills. The best fire drill I ever went through had me put out a real oil fire after choosing the adequate extinguisher.

Similarly, I want my son (and his teacher) to hear and recognize gun shots, whether in his school hallway or in the street outside the school windows, or at the park, and act appropriately... I can try to drill the theory into his head (a must when you live in the Oakland area), but practice makes perfect.

Sadly last year, a 1st grade student in our district got killed by a stray bullet at his family's taco truck on infamous International Blvd. We have regular occurrences of loaded guns being brought into our high-schools and even recently in one of our middle schools (by a bullied student who thankfully was stopped in time).
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2388

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bullet hits before the sound get's there, even .45, the slowest. 9mm is almost DOUBLE the speed of sound, while .223 is easily FOUR times faster than sound can travel.
Having fired well over 30,000 rounds, various calibers, I cannot tell if it's a gunshot from a M-80 or CherryBomb if either of those are lit inside a solid container. Even a firecracker lit inside iron conduit sounds like gunshot.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5203

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Opinions backed by facts are more pursuasive. This is simply wrong:

I
Quote:
wouldn't be so quick to read the signs.
Japan has tons of violence, the Yakaza, lots of gang violence, big industry crime, just not reported.
Talk to any Japanese person.
They use sticks, knifes, and swords, no so much guns.


The murder rate per 100,000 people in Japan is about 1/8th of what it is in the United States. Some of that has to do with how hard it is to get guns, some has to do with culture.

In the United States we're not allowed to collect information about what factors may cause violence, and what guns and cultural phenomenon are the root causes--because the NRA convinced the Republicans (nearly all) and a few Democrats that there was a right to privacy in gun ownership and no information can be collected.

What a party! There is no right to privacy to protect women's reproductive rights, but there is a convenient right to privacy to protect gun manufacturers profits. Gotta love the tortured reasoning of the GOP.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1945

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
Opinions backed by facts are more pursuasive. This is simply wrong:

I
Quote:
wouldn't be so quick to read the signs.
Japan has tons of violence, the Yakaza, lots of gang violence, big industry crime, just not reported.
Talk to any Japanese person.
They use sticks, knifes, and swords, no so much guns.


The murder rate per 100,000 people in Japan is about 1/8th of what it is in the United States. Some of that has to do with how hard it is to get guns, some has to do with culture.

In the United States we're not allowed to collect information about what factors may cause violence, and what guns and cultural phenomenon are the root causes--because the NRA convinced the Republicans (nearly all) and a few Democrats that there was a right to privacy in gun ownership and no information can be collected.

What a party! There is no right to privacy to protect women's reproductive rights, but there is a convenient right to privacy to protect gun manufacturers profits. Gotta love the tortured reasoning of the GOP.


Interesting that Japan's suicide rate is nearly double that of the US. Cultural differences abound.

The Repub. party is not alone in playing to their base. Gun rights buy votes in red states. . Gun control plays in blue states. Simple math

I am frustrated that Sen. Feinstein is the one that has introduced a gun control bill backed by, of course, Sen Schumer. You would be hard pressed to find two other Senators that generate greater ire in my community (which is relatively moderate). The two Demo Senators from Colorado have indicated they will not support her bill. No big surprise...political suicide.

The whole thing smacks of politics. If the Demo leadership is really interested in passing a gun control bill, it should have come from a moderate. Shameful stunts.

The Colorado Gov is proposing new gun control laws. But, indicated he will not sign a partisan bill. This guy has a clue!
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2388

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Statistics can be altered, ignored, or just plain manipulated.
The Japanese, historically, are one of the most violent cultures ever in mankind, and one of the sneakiest. Don't believe the statistics.
Ever have a male Japanese friend? I mean someone who would really tell you how it is. I have, several.
Not every culture has to hold up to the standards of US.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14157

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
The whole thing smacks of politics.

"Smacks of"? Not a noticeable peep about gun control in four years, until a crisis presents an opportunity for a coup? You can rest assured that this timing is 100% political and this issue is simply another item on the left's Big Government agenda for The Chosen One's last hurrah.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1945

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
Quote, N.W. 30.

'This has gotten out of control.'

Thank you sir for a touch of sanity. From where those of us of different cultures sit, we can only shake our heads in disbelief at some of the statements we read, including some on this thread.

Isn't it the cowards who are driving this rush to an arms race among the whole of the general populace? i.e. I (me me me) must have a bigger and better weapon than anybody else because I'm s**t scared someone might attack me! The inevitable consequence would be an escalation, and ACCEPTANCE, of violence in society as the norm, especially when the children have all been indoctrinated!


Yet, the number of violent crimes in the US has been dropping for over 20 years. Compared to an increaing population (and a lot more guns) the opposite argument could be made. This issue is a lot deeper than emotional arguments and statistical manipulation.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5203

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CB--I must defend Feinstein, I know her well politically, and she is indeed a moderate. For years I joked that she is the only Republican I ever voted for. Perhaps she is not a moderate on gun control--but her experience includes being one of the first people to walk into George Moscone's office after Dan White shot him and Harvey Milk. Her watch includes a mass shooting at a high rise building in San Francisco, which stimulated her first effort. When you take an oath to protect your constituents, it is hard to stand by and do nothing after they have been slaughtered by a military weapon.

My own view is that regulation that is aimed at the ready-availability of resold guns to the mentally ill and criminal is the most effective method, and that limiting assault weapons has more symbolic than practical value. But if you watched the NRA's testimony today, they will not even support checks of gun show sales. And Sessions and the fool Senator from Texas are right there to suck up to the NRA. There is no middle ground that most Republicans and the NRA will not fight. I can't tell if the NRA guy is completely evil, or just insane.

There are plenty of suicides in the United States--most by gun, and they are more common than murder. But you have put your finger on the larger factor about crime rates. They are going down because the percentage of young men between 17 and 30in the population is going down. Here and in Japan. Those are the folks that do the crimes. If they have guns, their crimes are even more violent. Don't ignore statistics in favor of anecdotes or biases. There lies madness. Or perhaps just unreasoned anger.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3354

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The NRA guys are neither evil or insane. They have been paid big money to read from a script.
There are a lot of profits in guns.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1344

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C.B. 'Yet the number of violent crimes in the U.S. has been dropping for over 20 years. Compared to an increasing population (and a lot more guns) the opposite argument could be made.'

But surely you cannot really believe that! Even assuming the quoted statistics are true, and not manipulated, wouldn't the crime rate have fallen even further if there had been far fewer guns?

After all, I could claim that the safest form of transport (based on number of deaths per thousands of miles travelled) is a one way suicide mission to Mars. We have a similar Alice in Wonderland approach to statistics in our country. Our authorities insist crime rates are steadily falling, while the populace just laughs at such brazen political manipulation of the reality. (The thread is about gun control, so no need to document the methods used to 'fiddle' the statistics!)
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