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Cam Vs. No-Cam (Again)
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konajoe



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 178

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DanWeiss hit on my second point about cam vs. camless. The few of us using cam sails consistently sail through lulls better. In fact, we come ashore some days, and everyone is complaining about the wind being hole-y. We barely notice.

To me, it makes sense, because my sails hold their shape when the wind drops. On the other hand, camless sails go flatter in lulls. This is exactly when you don't want the sail flat.

I didn't follow the previous comment bout the Ezzy sail looking ugly. Cam sails look right when laying on the beach.
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2413

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your experience is in a tiny pond.
Everywhere else, the guys who can't sail and complain are not skilled, regardless of sail sizing.
RAF or Cam, in gusty winds make little difference to the experienced, while the novices constantly fall in during lulls and get launched in gusts.
I find very little difference overall, except for the pointing, downwind, and pure stability on huge sizing (big for the windspeeds).
Use what you want, but if you come around anyone who can sail no cams, you'll get passed in gusts ANB lulls, and find yourself planing up later than them, them with smaller sails, even.
Active windsurfing works better than non active windsurfing.
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speedysailor



Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Posts: 841

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys definitely like to beat a dead horse.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2708

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

seedysailor wrote:
You guys definitely like to beat a dead horse.

Brucie, when it comes to beating dead horses, you're the poster boy.


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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14339

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The major difference, the factor that forever cured me of any interest in cams decades ago, is all but ignored by this thread's emphasis on shape while lying on the lawn. Most of us, however, do most of our sailing on the water, where many of us rank handling/maneuvering as our #1 performance criterion. Come to think of it, that's also #2 and #3 for me. And guess which format, cams or camless, matches that performance profile best. I've even taken my RAFs to another level to farther separate them from cammed sails' behavior in that regard, by designing them to blunt the leading edges of those huge square-edged gusts frontal winds are so notorious for. Only an accomplished racerhed wants to get hit over the head by every instantaneous 100% increase in sail power.

As for planing through lulls, rigging bigger works just fine. A good RAF feels so light that even in bigger sizes, it usually feels much lighter than a cammed sail, and all that matters regarding weight is feel.
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konajoe



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 178

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason other factors aren't discussed is because this thread was supposed to be about which type of sail is better at planing through lulls and which is better for pumping on to a plane.

Man, folks get off topic easy!

OK, try to explain these things in the last few comments. How can you possibly think that a camless sail is going to keep you from getting 'hit over the head' with a gust. Leach tension takes care of that for me. Camless sails are worse in gusts because the increased pressure on the sail makes them fuller at the leading edge, when you would want that constant, or if possible, flatter.

There was a recent reference to 'active' sails. Both cam and camless sails have active leaches. The camless sails are the only ones active in the luff. Fuller in gusts, and flatter in lulls. Exactly the opposite of what you want.

Did anyone try testing the effect outhaul on pumping, as I suggested? It's a pretty dramatic difference.
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 1288
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, my experience is that camless sails bust gusts much better than
cammed sails. I went from a cammed 8.5 Sailworks TX2 race sail to a
9.5 Sailworks Retro no cam. No comparison, I'll take the retro for gust
management any day. My Northwaves are the same way, they have a
nice springy feel when a gust initially hits since they don't inflate
instantaneously, but rather the warp comes on smoothly and slowly.
It's not just the leech tension, because NWs don't rig with a lot of flop.

My opinion is that cams are good for coasting through lulls, and
extreme weather angles. If that's what you're using them for
then you'll be pleased.

Just my .02

-Craig


konajoe wrote:
The reason other factors aren't discussed is because this thread was supposed to be about which type of sail is better at planing through lulls and which is better for pumping on to a plane.

Man, folks get off topic easy!

OK, try to explain these things in the last few comments. How can you possibly think that a camless sail is going to keep you from getting 'hit over the head' with a gust. Leach tension takes care of that for me. Camless sails are worse in gusts because the increased pressure on the sail makes them fuller at the leading edge, when you would want that constant, or if possible, flatter.

There was a recent reference to 'active' sails. Both cam and camless sails have active leaches. The camless sails are the only ones active in the luff. Fuller in gusts, and flatter in lulls. Exactly the opposite of what you want.

Did anyone try testing the effect outhaul on pumping, as I suggested? It's a pretty dramatic difference.
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NickB



Joined: 30 Jun 2009
Posts: 498
Location: Alameda, CA

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I only have experience with non-cam sails. My beloved workhorse is an Ezzy Freeride 7.0 (2010, with Ezzy 460 rdm) which has a crazy range.

That being said, when bagged out for very light winds, and it's a tractor then, its COE moves back as it gets powered, so I have to adjust my harness lines back so they're balanced during the gusts. Meaning when underpowered, my front arm has to work harder. (this effect is, expectedly, much less noticeable when rigged for higher winds / flatter)

Not that big of a deal but I'm wondering if cams would alleviate this, by keeping the profile/COE locked in the same position regardless of wind power?

Also, I keep hearing cam'ed sails have a better top end. Does that mean that one could handle the same gusts with a Lion 7.5 (2-cam, ex-infinity) as with a Cheetah 7.0 (no-cam, ex-Freeride), while planing in the lulls better?
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2413

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fully locked draft cammed sails are more stable, so there is less draft pressure changes than no cams. There still IS draft movement issues.
No cams are not the call if you want to hold a 7.5 sail in 28mph winds, unless you are highly skilled, or just plain huge.
I"m 150 lbs., in gusts of 28, meaning averages 22, lulls 16, I can hold a 6.5 4 cam race slalom sail, or any GOOD, not cheapo, freeride sail. Once you stuff a 7.5 in my hands, same 16-28mph winds, I would take a fully cammed race slalom sail.
However, I can easily keep up with any race cam 7.5, in those conditions, with a 5.5 or even 5.2. This talking clean wind. A 7.5 can create huge turbulent wind behind it, and can also cruise thru the turbulent window of a 5.2.
Around here, because most of the guys trying for speed are pretty even, we always line up the guy ahead down low, everyone behind higher than the guy in front, so everyone get's clean air to start. We're not racing for trophies or $$$, just trying to dial in our gear and go as fast as possible.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14339

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

konajoe wrote:
The reason other factors aren't discussed is because this thread was supposed to be about which type of sail is better at planing through lulls and which is better for pumping on to a plane.

Man, folks get off topic easy!

OK, try to explain these things in the last few comments. How can you possibly think that a camless sail is going to keep you from getting 'hit over the head' with a gust?

Did anyone try testing the effect outhaul has on pumping ...

Waiting for 6 pages of posts is "getting off topic easily"? Here I thought I waited long enough to remind lurkers and/or novices that there's more to the cam/camless decision than planing. Besides, that choice isn't the only way to address early planing; size matters, too. Many 6-meter RAFs not only plane earlier and longer than many 5-meter cammed sails, but offer lighter feel, lower cost, less mast wear, easier rigging and waterstarting, and greater maneuverability as bonuses.

Compare a cammed sail (normally mylar) with an RAF wave sail (often with more forgiving materials) in square-edged gusts and get back to us. Then make that wave sail even MORE gust-friendly by properly engineered allocation of gust-absorbing dacron panels and PVC windows, and those extremely gusty days feel more like nice thermal winds. Then add top-of-the-line carbon battens and seam shaping to hold the shape in those gusts, even if sustained, and the COE ("draft") never budges. The bottom line is that even cam-riders (the recreational variety like myself, not pros), usually go ashore to rig down far earlier and far more often than I do.

Example: my first session on my present sail model was in occasional flying spray, with everyone my size fully powered on 4.0s and 3.7s. I spent hours fully sheeted in, maneuvering very hard and often, yet never perceiving ANY COE drift. If the sheer power at hand hadn't worried me, I felt like I could have taken both hands off the boom very often. Never ONCE did lulls make me fall off a plane or need to pump, nor did any gusts drive the COE aft. Why is that a testimony for good RAFs? Because to check out its top end stability claims, I was on a demo 5.7. I called the loft and ordered a whole quiver of them as soon as I went ashore, still dripping wet and in my harness, in mid-season (I normally wait until winter to replace my sails).

And that was before I got smart enough to further modify them to absorb gusts even better.

I'm also a bit surprised that no one's mentioned fanning the leech as a pumping method. It's not night and day, but it definitely helps, at least on RAFs, even when hooked in (to a roller bar).

If you consider that off your opening topic, I apologize. It's intended merely to address your planing quest from a different direction.
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