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A rude ending to the Armstrong myth
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speedysailor



Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Posts: 841

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That 1,000 page report does sound like excellent reading.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2705

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

seedysailor wrote:
That 1,000 page report does sound like excellent reading.

So, Brucie, when you read it please post the executive summary for others to read.
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 1961
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's official. Without a public examination of the USADA allegations, the International Cycling Federation caved by failing to appeal the USADA finding (again, without any fact hearing in opposition) to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

The self-satisfied pundits may now proceed to crow, but let it be known that ICF's apparent weakness to stand up for open justice already sees its first chicken coming home to roost. Rabobank announced withdrawal from pro cycling for good, declaring it's belief that pro cycling is corrupt. Who's next?

Good luck ICF, you just bit that hand that fed you.

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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1365

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SCA Promotions, after waiting for the UCI official ruling, will now make a formal demand to Mr. Armstrong for repayment of a 7.25 million dollar bonus paid to him for his 6th Tour de France win. If this is not successful they will initiate proceedings against Mr. Armstrong in five business days. (Mon 29 Oct)

Times Newspapers are also consulting their legal department for repayment of an undisclosed (probably in excess of 1 million) sum which Armstrong sued them for when they printed doping allegations against him.

All of his major sponsors 'dropped him' soon after the USADA reasoned report, with Nike, the biggest, leading the way. (Part of Nike statement..'seemingly insurmountable evidence that Lance Armstrong participated in doping and mislead Nike for more than a decade.')

Armstrong resigned as chairman of Livestrong a week after the USADA report which described him as a driving force behind ..'the most sophisticated, professionalised, and successful doping programme the sport has ever seen.'

For those of us who are keen cyclists concerned with the future wellbeing of our sport (not with doped up cheats and frauds) we feel that a corner has been turned. Whether corrupt officials stay in office or not probably doesn't matter in that they will be unable to allow a rotten state of affairs to continue. They will now be under close scrutiny, and will be forced to 'clear out' those tainted. Some of the teams are already doing so (and not before time), and that bodes well for the future!
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 1961
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gurgle, we both want clean cycling. My observations are based only on the process used to crucify Armstrong. What I find laughable is the glee with which some are now claiming they will go after his assets for a refund of bonus fees and other sorts of payments.

Uh, good luck with that. Armstrong was never found to have broken a contract, defrauded anyone or received ill-gotten gain. I'm unaware of any court in the US that would allow a contract partner to play the role of a creditor without any prior finding of liability.

Whether Nike or the insurer of his management's bonus contract, neither can pass the litmus test necessary to claw back payments unless their contract with him creates a very low threshold of proof. In any such trial, Armstrong would be well within his rights to present his own direct and rebuttal evidence. These rights were clearly not afforded him by USADA.

I'm unfamiliar with the specific standards of libel in the UK, but there is no "truth is a complete defense" if, at the time, what the publisher knew then is less than later. In other words, these new tests that apparently got around blocking agents were not available at the time. It's what one knew when one published the material, not what someone comes to know subsequently.

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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1365

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply Dan. I don't condone short cuts to justice, and rule of law must be followed. I think we agree on that.

As a keen cyclist (currently flogging my pan out to train for a club sportive) I worry that even at our humble club level the pro drug culture may be taking hold. That's where the evil of it all is felt.

I don't KNOW what my emotions really are. I'm certainly thrilled that at long last, the s..t has hit the fan, and that a serious clean up of the sport MUST now take place. I even feel sorry for Armstrong though I hate him for what he has done. He has the rest of his life to live in disgrace, with all his achievements in cycling now toxic. That must be soul destroying to someone like him, and I couldn't face such a future with my integrity destroyed.

So it's not a case of gloating. I really don't care if all the claims against him fail, and I hardly hold firms such as Nike as bastions of integrity. If there have legal irregularities then Armstrong, through his representatives has recourse to the law. After all, he is credited with being worth over 100 million dollars.

I repeat, I want to see justice, as you do, and to know in future that as those riders force their bodies and bikes up those gruelling mountain passes, theirs are real and genuine achievements. I leave it to others to ensure how best that can be brought about.
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 1961
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
Thanks for the reply Dan. I don't condone short cuts to justice, and rule of law must be followed. I think we agree on that.

As a keen cyclist (currently flogging my pan out to train for a club sportive) I worry that even at our humble club level the pro drug culture may be taking hold. That's where the evil of it all is felt.

I don't KNOW what my emotions really are. I'm certainly thrilled that at long last, the s..t has hit the fan, and that a serious clean up of the sport MUST now take place. I even feel sorry for Armstrong though I hate him for what he has done. He has the rest of his life to live in disgrace, with all his achievements in cycling now toxic. That must be soul destroying to someone like him, and I couldn't face such a future with my integrity destroyed.

So it's not a case of gloating. I really don't care if all the claims against him fail, and I hardly hold firms such as Nike as bastions of integrity. If there have legal irregularities then Armstrong, through his representatives has recourse to the law. After all, he is credited with being worth over 100 million dollars.

I repeat, I want to see justice, as you do, and to know in future that as those riders force their bodies and bikes up those gruelling mountain passes, theirs are real and genuine achievements. I leave it to others to ensure how best that can be brought about.


Again, we each agree that justice must prevail.

Each rider is responsible for his or her own decisions. If pressure from the team leadership tips the rider's decisions, well, that's exactly how we define personal integrity. All of us could make a few more thousand a month dealing heavy drugs but I trust most of us do not because we hold dear our own investment in societal good, and because we respect ourselves.

Not all people reside at the same level of power but justice requires the same rules apply to everyone facing the gavel. Lance was prevented from reasonable preparation for the arbitration hearing because USADA refused to disclose witness statements and documents in sufficient time before the hearing. Such behavior in most Western courts would result in admonitions from the hearing officer or judge and exclusion of evidence in the most egregious of circumstances. When the judge and jury are the same, as they say, the fix is in.

Every lawyer with a few years of trial experience and just a few arbitration hearings would love to represent Armstrong in a fair hearing. At least then he'd get a fighting chance.

On the other hand, he certainly received counsel regarding his participation in the hearing or otherwise appealing any USADA procedure. They undoubtedly advised him in light of the context, and that suggests they also viewed it as a hatchet job. I spent hours today reading the USADA papers and came away impressed by the numbers but unconvinced by the admissible quality. Contents Frankie Andreau's affidavit would largely be rejected due to hearsay. The statements of others he alleges were made were not supported by those he alleges made them. I'm not saying Frankie is lying, but e-mails and IM records cannot be presented by him; they require verification of authenticity by those who allegedly made the statements -in general.

What USADA presented was 100% one sided. And when USADA is the judge and jury, any claim that Armstrong's election not to appeal lacks res judicata or estoppel effect. It makes no sense at all.

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speedysailor



Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Posts: 841

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yesterday I was cycling. The fact would be that I do more of that than windsurfing. It was a great fall ride, and I didn't think of Lance once.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2705

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

seedysailor wrote:
Yesterday I was cycling. The fact would be that I do more of that than windsurfing. It was a great fall ride, and I didn't think of Lance once.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1365

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed. Given sound health, forceful cycling is a proven and superb means of prolonging fitness, and life itself, well into extreme old age.

Cycling News carried a snippet last Summer on a 100 year old keen life long club cyclist who had just entered and completed a club 1 hour time trial, and had set a very creditable time (considering his age) into the bargain. Truly inspiring!

Cycling lends itself to that competitive urge within us, either against others, or just against ourselves. (Beat that personal best time, climb that hill faster, complete 100 miles etc.) I know that since taking it more seriously myself, over the last couple of years, how it's helped reinvigorate that enthusiasm and zest for life that the young at heart feel.

And I know one more thing for sure ... It's THAT, and only that, which fuels MY performance! (And I look forward to trying to match that 100 year old's 1 hour time, in 25 years time! ) (Laughing Laughing )
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