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Anybody rode a 120liter good jiber?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14602

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are too many great boards that ride very smoothly out there to tolerate one that doesn't, unless it serves a purpose no other board could. For string's stated goals, that's not the case.

OTOH, his inclination that any one board, such as a new OO, is his only choice makes little sense to me for a guy that lives near a usedboard forest. .

OTOH, if it's just for marginal winds, with very few gusts, and flat water like Stevenson, a freestyle board's rough ride may not matter.

OTOH, buying a niche board for a single aspect of its performance envelope while discarding its forte sounds sorta strange to me.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1230

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Particularly the older models, they are exceptional jibers, and will carve with speed any diameter jibe you want. In the price range the OP is looking in, try the F2 Air. A little newer (circa 2004) would be the JP Freestyle, Fanatic Skate, both of which you'd never guess were freestyle boards if someone didn't tell you (the JP begs to be duck jibed!) The only thing the old freestyle boards don't do well is drag race.

Also as previously posted, most any FSW of the right volume will work too.

zirtaeb wrote:
Interesting choice, a pure freestyle board, of the correct volume, for learning or perfecting jibes.
Forward inboard straps favor it.
Limited topspeeds also favor jibing.
Wide templates and curvy outline, coupled with track well back favors smaller sails.
Light board weight is responsive and fun, but as said, can be bouncy.
Might be a very good choice.

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noshuzbluz



Joined: 18 May 2000
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnl wrote:

I would rather have good technique then ride a board that hides it..... Cool


How do you figure that?

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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14602

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree. Technique can compensate only so much.
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1195
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

noshuzbluz wrote:
johnl wrote:

I would rather have good technique then ride a board that hides it..... Cool


How do you figure that?


Well this could start another long debate. But there are boards out there that dampen the feel so much as to make life very simple for the sailor. If you like simple, go for it. That being said, I've sailed with a lot of friends who love these boards and yet I sail circles around them. Their skill set doesn't seem to improve because they decided to take "the easy route" and use a board that makes life very simple. They say they are fast (yet I pass them with ease), they say they turn great (yet I plane out of my jibes most of the time and they never do). They love the feel and are happy with their boards so they are happy customers. Yet I've sailed with them for years and never see them get any better. So do I think the boards are holding them back? Yep.

I look at it this way. Do you see ANY of the pros out there using these "great boards"? And the answer is no. Granted sponsorship has something to do with this but it isn't everything. Especially for the newer pros who would probably sail anything that got them up in the standings Smile

I personally (and this has nothing to do with "freestyle boards" since I have other types for high wind) perfer a light responsive board and there are plenty of them out there, to a board that dampens everything.

BUT on the other side of the coin, there is enough demand for these boards too keep the manufacturer busy. So it comes down to what you like, not what I like....

I personally believe that most of windsurfing comes from sail handling and pick a board that is light and lively enough to allow me to get by with the smallest sail for the conditions. This allows me easier sail handling. On the other hand you won't see me jumping up with Dale Cook with this selection. So it is like most things in life a compromise.


But also people who think that windsurfing in the gorge is nothing more than swell riding amaze me. That covers a FEW of the sailing spots. There are plenty of other spots to work on things such as your jibes. Don't get me wrong, I love riding the hatch on a 3.7 - 4.2 day. But guess what, I have just as good of a day sailing a site like Waterfront Park on a light 5.2 day and work on other things. If I did nothing but ride the swell on high wind days, I would turn into a Gorge Wind snob like so many. Oh yeah, believe it or not, I also have a GREAT time in the Hook on a 200liter board and a 3.3 sail working on sail handling when many more perfer to sit around and wait for the wind to come up.....

So maybe I'm just different, so don't go by what I say.... Cool
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LeeD



Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 1048

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent post from JohnL....
The sailor jibes, not the board. If you need a particular board to jibe well, you probably don't jibe well at all.
Not sure about using the tougher to jibe boards to learn, but some people learn faster going the tough route.
Most people learning to jibe demolish their boards while learning. Freeride or FSW is usually stronger on the deck than pure Freestyle.
Learning to jibes sorta defines your skill level, so more volume Freeride/FSW is preferred.
Most companies say the FSW catagory is their biggest sellers.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14602

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnl wrote:
do I think the boards are holding them back? Yep. Do you see ANY of the pros out there using these "great boards"? And the answer is no.

But also people who think that windsurfing in the gorge is nothing more than swell riding amaze me ... I have just as good of a day sailing a site like Waterfront Park on a light 5.2 day and work on other things ... I would turn into a Gorge Wind snob like so many.... Cool


Boards I've liked enough to buy include Goyas, Naishes, a Quatro, a Nelson, Thommens, Greenes, a Rogue Wave, JPs, a Gnigler, etc. Pros ride 'em in some version or another, and I'm sure none of them is holding me back. They all turn insanely AND ride smoothly, and most of them are very fast in very rough terrain when powered properly. It doesn't take a freestyle board to jibe.

Yup ... swell obsession limits our venues and our days. That's why some us feel very strongly that BAFfers should give us some space on crowded days, because they can do their thing anywhere. How's a BAFfer going to be received when he blasts through a crowded Hawaiian wave venue screaming, "STARBOARD"? My guess is that he'd be wise to have flat-pruf tires on his rental car.

We're glad some people can "have just as good of a day sailing a site like Waterfront Park on a light 5.2 day and work on other things", but many of us rate that as a "1" on a scale of 10, rate getting hammered on big swell a "10", and have rearranged not just our careers but our very lives on that distinction. I walked away from my engineering career decades ago (do the math) and refused the only treatment that might ultimately save my life from terminal cancer because of that distinction. Sports that don't require me to function at my mental, physical, and visceral limits and bitch-slap me when I get distracted bore me, and I know hundreds of people who feel the same. So on those "light 5.2 days" you mention, I'm on a 6.2 and an 80-liter wave board in waist- or maybe even chest-high swell trying to sail as though I were maxed out on my 3.2 at Arlington. When that fails I type; it's less physical, but just as consciousness-altering.

Gorge Swell Snob
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noshuzbluz



Joined: 18 May 2000
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well this could start another long debate. But there are boards out there that dampen the feel so much as to make life very simple for the sailor. If you like simple, go for it. That being said, I've sailed with a lot of friends who love these boards and yet I sail circles around them. Their skill set doesn't seem to improve because they decided to take "the easy route" and use a board that makes life very simple. They say they are fast (yet I pass them with ease), they say they turn great (yet I plane out of my jibes most of the time and they never do). They love the feel and are happy with their boards so they are happy customers. Yet I've sailed with them for years and never see them get any better. So do I think the boards are holding them back? Yep.

Good post John. It's pointless to debate personal preference but I do need to respond so bare with me!
From your post it doesn't sound like you ever have ridden an OO. I've got 2. One is Brian's traditional "flagship" enduro construction. About 75-78ltrs. Built for typical 5.0 and below conditions. Steady 4.5 + conditions is really when this board performs like no other board I've ridden. Yes I think I have to agree with you as far as the "dampening feel" but when you're in those conditions I personally like the fact that it "makes life simple". My best day of the season was with a 4.5 Panther stretched tight when folks with 4.5's were coming off the water to rig down. I went out and had so much fun I was laughing most of the time. Those are the times when control or "the easy route" is preferred, at least in my book.
The other board (about 92-95ltrs) is a VERY different construction than most or all of the OO's on the water that you see. You can't tell by looking at them but they are very light, very lively, very fast and early to plane. In my opinion a perfect "medium wind" board.
I don't see how a ANY board that offers control and makes sailing simple can hold any sailor back? How can you possibly focus on getting better if you're bouncing around all over the place, can't make a smooth entry into a jibe and end up in the water all the time? If sailors you sail with can't plane out of jibe on an OO, that's their problem. I know darn well with these boards they're going to have the best possible chance to pull off a good jibe in choppy conditions as good as or better than other board built for Bump n Jump conditions.


I look at it this way. Do you see ANY of the pros out there using these "great boards"? And the answer is no. Granted sponsorship has something to do with this but it isn't everything. Especially for the newer pros who would probably sail anything that got them up in the standings
No and until Bump n Jump/Freeride is a contest category you probably won't. I do see them in almost every Gorge video I see. And of course sponsorship is a major factor

I personally (and this has nothing to do with "freestyle boards" since I have other types for high wind) perfer a light responsive board and there are plenty of them out there, to a board that dampens everything.
Try a newer OO when conditions reach what normally would be maybe time to grab a smaller board and you'll see what I'm talking about.

BUT on the other side of the coin, there is enough demand for these boards too keep the manufacturer busy. So it comes down to what you like, not what I like....
Yes, the OO sailors I've talk to seem to be very loyal. There's a reason for that.


I personally believe that most of windsurfing comes from sail handling and pick a board that is light and lively enough to allow me to get by with the smallest sail for the conditions. This allows me easier sail handling. On the other hand you won't see me jumping up with Dale Cook with this selection. So it is like most things in life a compromise.


But also people who think that windsurfing in the gorge is nothing more than swell riding amaze me. That covers a FEW of the sailing spots. There are plenty of other spots to work on things such as your jibes. Don't get me wrong, I love riding the hatch on a 3.7 - 4.2 day. But guess what, I have just as good of a day sailing a site like Waterfront Park on a light 5.2 day and work on other things. If I did nothing but ride the swell on high wind days, I would turn into a Gorge Wind snob like so many. Oh yeah, believe it or not, I also have a GREAT time in the Hook on a 200liter board and a 3.3 sail working on sail handling when many more perfer to sit around and wait for the wind to come up.....

So maybe I'm just different, so don't go by what I say....
Different isn't such a bad thing! That's what makes us, different![/b]
Cool[/b]

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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14602

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not all, but most hard charging sailors I know who have sailed OOs, even myself, feel OOs do hold them back. But for the OP's stated purpose, they would work well if big enough.
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1195
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

noshuzbluz wrote:
Good post John. ........... I don't see how a ANY board that offers control and makes sailing simple can hold any sailor back? How can you possibly focus on getting better if you're bouncing around all over the place, can't make a smooth entry into a jibe and end up in the water all the time? If sailors you sail with can't plane out of jibe on an OO, that's their problem. I know darn well with these boards they're going to have the best possible chance to pull off a good jibe in choppy conditions as good as or better than other board built for Bump n Jump conditions.


Actually your quote says it all Smile A smooth entry into a jibe is NOT board related. It is sailor skill/technique. It's how you set up your jibe and transfer your weight onto the rail. You set the rail properly and it will hold through the jibe (and yes, I'm sure there is a board out there somewhere that can't do this, but I'm sure it's also out of production and was never popular). A good sailor will make a good entry on any decent board (with exceptions, everybody blows one now and then). And I'm not saying that all OO (I never mentioned a brand Shocked ) sailors can't plane a jibe. I don't like absolutes, there are always exceptions.

And if you doubt me, watch Bruce Petersen jibe some time. Watch the way he sets up the jibe and leans into it on a raceboard, overpowered, in chop. I think he could plane a sheet of plywood in chop through a jibe. Other people can't plane a great board through 6" chop.

My point is yes, if you are an experienced sailor with good technique, then quite frankly who am I to tell you what to sail? Sail what makes you happy. But for people with margainal advanced skills, I think that type of board (Notice once again I don't mention brand) will hold back your progression by making you lazy.
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