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Union vs Emanuel
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2720

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
For mrgybe,

Teachers do not go into teaching for the money, but they do want to be recognized for their efforts and success, and the most meaningful way is a pay increase above inflation. Equally important is a written appraisal with appropriate praise that goes into their permanent record. Given the size and bureaucracy of many of the public systems, developing a meaningful and accurate appraisal system is almost impossible. In private schools, it's a piece of cake, primarily because of their size and management principals.

I agree with you on the first part and haven't suggested anything different. All I have done is rebut the notion that compensation is unimportant to most teachers and therefore, irrelevant as a motivation for improved performance. I don't agree that the size of the school system is too large to accommodate an appraisal process. Multinational corporations do it with hundreds of thousands of employees in a hundred different countries. It requires standards, discipline and consistent application. No system is perfect, but the ones I have seen enable the brightest and the best to rise to the top. I can only imagine how irritating it must be for a top flight young teacher to know with absolute certainty that the old, ineffective teachers are being paid more merely because they have been around longer.......and also knowing that those old, ineffective teachers will block advancement because of tenure. A breeding ground for mediocrity.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5358

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CB--Point well taken on public unions. I see Bay area politicians unwilling to disagree with public unions when their viewpoint is contrary to the public interest or fiscal realities. But there is a somewhat different subject under discussion here--teachers.

I do support tenure for both teachers and public employees--to protect them from political reprisal. Administrations change, particularly in local government institutions, and consistency in administration in bureaucracies where they implement the laws, not the whim of the current political head, is the difference between kingdoms and republics. With that said, this does not mean unions are the only way to do that.

But your opinion is substantially different from that of mrgybe, who blamed everything that was wrong with American education on unions. Of course he is sympathetic to the right, which wants to cut off all possibilities of union support of Democrats, and leave all politics subject to the influence of the rich and corporations.

Having been management in a unionized shop, I believe that there are practical benefits to union organization in public employment. Certain activities--discipline, changes in working conditions, lay-offs--were subject to meet and confer procedures. I found it useful to have a union representative available for such discussions, as a leavening force for aggrieved rank and file staff. They provided a way to get messages out, a more coherent place for real bargaining, and a realist who could talk to employees free of management perceived bias. Of course, I had to deal with as many unreasonable union representatives as I did management representatives--human frailty is a constant. When I was preparing to fire a tenured employee who could not meet deadlines, it was useful to have a back channel to explain to the union representative that resignation might be better for saving one's career than termination or demotion.

To be sure, the chat here, after a moment of lucidity where mrgybe clearly laid out his belief that the issues in Chicago were about pay --filtered through his viewpoint, but at least clear--discussion has reverted to talking points. There is no doubt in my mind that it is much more difficult to devise a fair evaluation system in a public school--where the law requires parents to send their children until they are 16--and a private business where termination is an appropriate consequence. But I have said it should be done, and I have said that the union issues are beside the point--that unions are there as advocates for the teachers to assure working conditions and due process, not as advocates for the children.

For many of these issues, the fault for the lack of meaningful feedback, including training and at times termination, lies at the feet of principals and higher administration. If it was a priority with them to evaluate their teachers, it would be done. If they were evaluate on their ability to terminate an inadequate teacher, rather than transfer them, we might have a different outcome.

What is entirely missing is any detail about the Chicago system and the problems of turnover. We have assumptions that new teachers are skilled (not so, energetic, perhaps) and older teachers are burned out. Sometimes true--but with 25% turnover there is plenty of new blood, and most experienced teachers I've seen are much better than new teachers. As usual, back to talking points instead of reasoning or analysis.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3457

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No teacher said that money is irrelevant.
You assigned that opinion to us.
You said money was every teachers main motivation as it is in your line of work.
That is not correct in the case of teachers and nurses.
It does not matter how many educators tell you the facts., when you live in the far right fairy tale world. You simply assign us a dumb opinion then show how foolish an idea that is.
Like on Fox.
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2720

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

keycocker wrote:
You said money was every teachers main motivation as it is in your line of work.

If you can quote me saying that I will send $1000 to your favorite charity. If not, admit you are wrong.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3457

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quoting you has never ended with you admitting your errors in a single instance. You simply parse words Clinton style and deny your own statements.
Why would we bother? You and Bush have never been wrong in your life.
Are you familiar with the expression intellectual dishonesty?
Do you ever learn anything here like I do?
We have lawyers ,engineers, teachers, travelers, posting here but you deny every word that they say in their own fields.
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2720

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can quote where I said "money was every teachers main motivation" not only will I send $1000 to your favorite charity, I will withdraw that statement without reservation. and will immediately admit I was wrong. Please quote me. Not only will it help your charity, it will help to dispel the belief that you make stuff up.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14321

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe wrote:
it will help to dispel the belief that you make stuff up.

Not by a LONG shot, in either quantity or degree, any more than the zinc-coated leaf on my lawn after I coated a bolt is proof that all leaves on the planet are zinc-coated.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5358

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You were crystal clear on your opinion:

To suggest that financial reward is not high on most people's list is ridiculous.

As usual, you ignored all evidence to the contrary. When you already know everything, it isn't necessary to listen. Have you been coaching Romney?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/secret-video-romney-private-fundraiser
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3613
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac, when the Repubs write the political obituary on Mittens on November 7th, that video will get much of the credit.....what a gift.
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2720

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Boggs, Have you tried the new iphone app..............."Apple WorkPlace Practices". I hear it's a riot.
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