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Cable Park meeting with Hood River Port Commission tonight
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jsampiero



Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 678

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scooter, the only thing I've lost is a little bit of my desire to be civil, because

1) I don't think the opposition is playing nice, or has even bothered to pay lip service to any ideas that include a boat basin with a cable park

and

2)Your most defensible argument rests on what is at best a half-truth: that many, many people have used the boat basin on a regular basis for a prolonged period of time. It's simply. Not. True. Did you increase use this summer? Yes. Is that indicative of historical use? No.

I literally just got back from the boat basin. Was there between 6 and 7 when I dropped my board in, and close to eight when I took it out. My arrival was during prime paddling time. Let's take a look at how many people were using the basin.

What? You can't see any? I"ll tell you. 2 paddlers on the water, 2 in the parking lot, and some people sailing toy boats in a small 50x50' area. And guess what? They were all using the north end of the basin - the area left *open* by the cable park.

Sharing, Scooter. It can happen.

youwindsurf: Pretty sure there wasn't any "character assassination" in that post. Did I chide a group of people I believe hold a poorly informed and selfish viewpoint? Absolutely - and they've done the same to me!There's room for everybody - I can see it, why can't you? Show me one instance where an opponent has said "Well, I could see a cable park in the boat basin if...." None. Nothing. Nada.

Most of you know me in person, because I'm one of the few people (Derek included) who clearly post here under my own name. Most of you realize I'm pretty damn reasonable. And if this thing fails, will you see me paddling in the basin? Sure. I did it before. I'll do it again. But you'll never convince me that 1) There aren't other places to paddle and 2)More people would have more fun with a cable park in the boat basin.

As to why you had 33 speakers at the meeting to our 15: we encouraged people on the proponent's side to give the port credibility in understanding the issues, and not waste time with repeated or unnecessary testimony. I regret that our side was not more vocal. You guys have clearly illustrated that making a lot of noise helps.

Edit: I know the pictures are upside down. iPhone sensor must be wonky. You get the point. Basin = not crowded.



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FORMERLY of www.windsurfingmag.com Wink

My personal website: www.youneedjosh.com
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scooter_bell



Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Josh,

Im sorry you don't think we are playing nice. We have given the number of use that we have recorded with our own eyes and from the three businesses that currently serve the public in the basin. We have done our best to be accurate and even conservative in our numbers. I don't recall ever claiming that the basin is used all day every day of the week in all types of weather. Thats silly. However, all you have to do is look at the new waterfront park to see how how improved access to the basin will result in even more use. I like the fact that the basin isn't an amusement park right now filled with people.

And you are right that we do not have a vision of the basin that includes the cable park. I'm pretty sure that is the whole point of our opposition. We are against it not for it. Don't try to smear us because we are not for it. I am also not for a casino being built there. I'm not interested in "sharing" the basin with a casino for the sake of "sharing". That is called a red herring argument.

Historical use? We are looking into the future as well as current use. Historically there were few if any kiters here in the gorge. SUP is the fastest growing watersport in the world. You of all people should know that without a beginner space to learn its tough to grow a sport like that in a community.

Again, you will see the majority of use in the North end of the basin because that is where the access is. It's not rocket science. When the south end is has a nice grass lawn you will see more people at that end. It will only get more popular and more used. We are planning for that future as well. I don't want our community to look at an amazingly improved basin with public access on the south and west bank only to be excluded to the vast majority of the basin due to a cable park.

I have yet to hear any ideas from you about shrinking the cable park and sharing the south and west ends of the basin where the improvements will take place. My ears are open but I can tell you that if a bunch of cell phone like towers are involved we won't be for it.

no one has ever said there are "no other places to paddle" What we are saying is that there are no other places that have the unique benefits and characteristics of the basin that make it a very desirable, safe, out of the current and wind place to be. The hook has windsurf schools and lots of wind with no wind blocks and is not right in the center of town. The marina is filled with boats. The new waterfront park beach is small and maxed out already signifying a need for more parks like that. There are no Hood River waterfront places like the basin that are better for staying out of the wind and current where parents can feel completely safe to let their kids play.

As far as your showing at the port meeting I have no idea why you failed to rally many speakers. You have had more than a year to plan for this.

To suggest that making noise helps is patronizing. That suggests that we don't have any good points and discredits you as an objective thinker. I know your side has some good points...just not enough to convince me that this is the right thing to do. We have some very smart people working with on this and to say we haven't looked into what we are talking about is silly.

We have all seen what a cable park is. Youtube has plenty of videos for those who have not seen them in person. They look boring and cluttered in my opinion and do not belong in a National Scenic area or in the Columbia river.

peace,
Derek Bell
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nicorico



Joined: 14 Sep 2012
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Long time listener, first time caller....

One group doesn't want a cable park. Another group does. Both groups are members of the same community of which the port is trying to make a decision on behalf of. We might not agree with each other, but we do have to live with each other.

That's really all that is relevant at this point...

-Oh, and one group has publicly threatened the port to litigate if the port doesn't vote in their favor. That is relevant also.
-Oh, and there's plenty of room for both groups on the waterfront, but one group doesn't see it that way. I guess that is relevant too.
-Oh, the opposing group feels that the public has a right to use the water above privately owned land. This could be the most legally relevant if true.

After we respect and consider each others opinions, that leads us to the Public Use Doctrine. This really should not be brought up unless you are a lawyer or have fully read and understood this at the very least:

http://www.oregon.gov/dsl/NAV/Pages/whoownsthewaterways.aspx

I am not a lawyer, but I have read this and others and the formal attorney generals legal opinion on the matter. After reading this material, it is pretty apparent that under only certain conditions would the PU Doc apply and grant public ownership of the waterway. Are these conditions met? I don't believe so, but again that is up to either the DSL or courts to decide officially if needed. I can tell you however, that if it were straight forward, the Port would have been advised on this A LONG TIME AGO. They have a very smart and respectable attorney advising them. Seriously people, do you think this had not been considered before on this project or other projects in the ports lap?

Coming in this forum and stating that the Public Use Doctrine empirically grants the public the right to the water in the Basin and even denies the idea of putting a cable park in the Basin is either disingenuous or naive.

It frustrates me to see people make such careless claims in regards to a serious issue and then others just blindly follow. If brought to court, I do not know what the ruling would be. This case is special and complicated. Anyone who cares to take at least 10-30 min out of their day to read will see this.

I am for the cable park. I agree with Josh's points. I too share in his frustration. I am a part of ReCreate. I live, work and play in Hood River full time. I will be here after this is done to help make recreation in Hood River better.

Thank you,

Nic Richards
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phazle5499



Joined: 03 Jul 2006
Posts: 104

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nic Richards writes:

"I am not a lawyer, but I have read this and others and the formal attorney generals legal opinion on the matter. After reading this material, it is pretty apparent that under only certain conditions would the PU Doc apply and grant public ownership of the waterway. Are these conditions met? I don't believe so, but again that is up to either the DSL or courts to decide officially if needed. I can tell you however, that if it were straight forward, the Port would have been advised on this A LONG TIME AGO. They have a very smart and respectable attorney advising them. Seriously people, do you think this had not been considered before on this project or other projects in the ports lap? "
_______________________________________
Easy for you to say that " under only certain conditions would the PU Doc apply and grant public ownership of the waterway". Let's hear specifically what those conditions are. Do you know what they are? Where have you heard anyone talk about "public ownership of the water"? Do you know the difference between "use" and "ownership". Does the Port "Own" the water?

Yes I agree, the Port does have a very smart and respectable attorney advising them. Do you know what they have advised the Port? Well, in a Legal Memorandum to the Port, the attorneys have advised that "If the Public Use Doctrine applies, a private entity likely could not exclude the public from the basin". Furthermore, "Oregon courts traditionally find in favor of public access over exclusive private use of natural resources".

So, to find out if the Public Use Doctrine applies, the opponents to the cable park have asked the Port of Hood River to JOIN THEM in seeking a declaratory judgment from the court. According to the Port's lawyers, this action "may be necessary to determine the applicability of the Public Use Doctrine to the Basin."

The opponents to the cable park are not "threatening litigation". The opponents are seeking a judicial clarification of the doctrine as it applies to the basin. We believe there is substantial evidence in case law and historical fact to support public use of the Columbia River waters in the basin and that the court will ultimately decide in our favor.
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puppydog



Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

soap box derby...blah,blah,blah
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scooter_bell



Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nic,

We have one group who doesn't want an amusement park ride built in the Columbia river

Then we have another group, backed by a million dollar corporation from out of town who thinks that is really cool.

Quit getting frustrated and stop being so shocked that people actually disagree with you.

The Ports own attorney as well as a handful of other attorneys we have spoken to have stated that this is a gray area legally right now in Oregon. States around the country are dealing with this as corporations are pushing the limits of public water ownership. Public waters are one of the last truly publicly owned resources we have. The courts will decide this not a group on a forum.

You have accused us of legal threats......Please sight those "threats" and back up what you have said.

Go back and re read phazzles last post. There is a difference between a threat and asking a court for legal clarification.

Good luck to you and keep on fighting for what you believe in.

We will do the same.

Derek
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youwindsurf



Joined: 18 Aug 2012
Posts: 671
Location: Classified

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jsampiero wrote:
youwindsurf: Pretty sure there wasn't any "character assassination" in that post. Did I chide a group of people I believe hold a poorly informed and selfish viewpoint? Absolutely - and they've done the same to me!There's room for everybody - I can see it, why can't you? Show me one instance where an opponent has said "Well, I could see a cable park in the boat basin if...." None. Nothing. Nada.


Mama always said two wrongs don't make a right. Just because you feel that some people have "done the same to me" does not mean you have to resort to the same tactics. From my reading of your posts, anyone who does not agree with your view point is: selfish, uninformed, old, narrow minded, entitled, a gamer, a liar, duplicitous, and possessing a mob mentality (these are your words, not mine - read your posts). I oppose the cable park and you have described me as possessing all of the negative traits set forth above, yet you know nothing about me.

If you read my posts, I stated that if the Developer would make the cable park free to all citizens, I would consider changing my view. That is not nada. Let me say it again for you: Well, I could see a cable park in the boat basin if...wait for it...here it is again...are you ready?...it were free of charge for all citizens.

I also learned that a person was not necessarily bad just because you did not agree with him, and that if you believed in something, you had better be prepared to defend it.
― Hillary Rodham Clinton

You paint those who disagree with you as having negative character traits. I do not think the same of you. You have a strong opinion. I commend you for that, but I disagree with you and you cannot expect me to accept what you believe because you simply say it is so.
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timsaunders



Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:21 pm    Post subject: I have an idea... Reply with quote

Just a thought..... Lets build up the gorge with soo many hotels and fun parks and bars and kooks and box stores and coffee shops and we can build build build build to infininty. It will be epic for real estate values and employment and we can all get rich..... YES... Then when we finally get fed up with the traffic, trash, poor water quality kooks everywhere we can just pick up and leave. We were never from here anyway.

Just think how epic the gorge would be if every development went through. We would have casinos, 250 homes at the hatchery, cable parks paris hilton would fly in and shake her ass at the new Hilton. Mega coal trains spilling money thru every town. Floridated water sooo thick we could have frootloops with cocacola for every breakfast. Not just a super walmart A SUPER SUPER walmart. Our lives would be soooo much radder in every way. Oh the glory. Trophy wives would quite L.A. and move to Hood River.... I want I want I need I need. More more more...... YEEeeeeSSSS.... I'm jizzing in my pants.....
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trburl



Joined: 10 Apr 2000
Posts: 186

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hells Ya Tim Saunders!!!! That right there is the heart of the matter........

It is not just the cable park. Its the precedent it sets for Hood River.

Keep your soul intact HR, the Devil won't sell it back to you no matter how much money you make. Ask Anyskitown Colorado.

Tom Burlingame
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puppydog



Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of people involved I suspect moved here from anyskitown usa.
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