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Removable center fin advice
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Darbonne



Joined: 27 Jan 2012
Posts: 127

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DelCarpenter wrote:
The original Starboard Start had a 40 cm deep Tuttle fin at the stern and a half moon shaped, short/regular Tuttle fin as the centerboard. A year or two later the centerboard fin was also deep Tuttle with an angled front and a fairly straight rear edge.

The fin and centerboard combinations I've used on my 2001 Start range from putting a 54 cm regular Tuttle pointer fin in as the centerboard for light winds to using a 70 cm formula fin on the stern with no centerboard.

When using a centerboard there is a point with stronger winds at which the windward rail lifts up and the board tries to roll over to leeward. Up to that point the centerboard is helpful. At that point you'll want to take out the centerboard.

Either a bigger fin on the stern or a bigger sail or both will help you plane. In addition to being an excellent beginner board a Start is also a big (and heavy) formula board well able to handle formula size sails and fins.


I have a 2001 Start with the half moon shaped center fin. Funny that you mention formula because the guy who I got the board from was using it as a formula board. He gave me everything he had in the deal. I have 2 12.0 sails, a Gulftech Maxim CF boom, Triana CF580 mast and a 70mm Drake racing fin. The formula stuff is in the closet and I haven't even rigged it yet. I have been sailing with the original 40cm rear fin and a Gaastra Matrix 8.0 and Ezzy Wave 5.8. I have removed the center fin and put the plug in its place. I weigh about 205 and the day I got planing the wind was about 15mph. I haven't tried the 70cm fin because I was advised that the board may not handle well, and I thought it might be better to keep things stock until my skills and confidence build. Maybe I will try the 70cm fin next time the conditions are right. I don't think I am ready for the 12.0's yet. I never thought about putting another fin in the center position. Thanks for that.
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Darbonne



Joined: 27 Jan 2012
Posts: 127

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beaglebuddy wrote:
Struggling with this now myself while in the straps I keep getting blown downwind, it seems that because the conditions are marginal and gusty here I have to point the board on a broad reach to get on a plane then I'm in a hole and the wind is slowing so I point it downwind again and so it goes next thing I'm far from where I launched.
So perhaps you need to be more powered up with a bigger sail to get on a plane without pointing downwind, then you can stay on a plane and point upwind a bit. This way you won't drift downwind.
To keep from rounding up hang from the boom more, keep your front leg straight and your back knee bent, push and pull.


I think it is about finding the balance point There are number of different factors in play once you get on plane. You are in the straps, I haven't gotten that far. I am sailing on an inland lake where I must get back to my launch point. I spend a lot of my sailing time sailing as close to the wind as possible so I don't end up getting beat against a concrete seawall. I Have not experienced being powered to the point of being able to rip on a reach and get back. I know the feeling of getting blown downwind. Not a very informative post. Maybe its the Pinot Noir. Going to keep working at it.
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beaglebuddy



Joined: 10 Feb 2012
Posts: 673

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darbonne wrote:
beaglebuddy wrote:
Struggling with this now myself while in the straps I keep getting blown downwind, it seems that because the conditions are marginal and gusty here I have to point the board on a broad reach to get on a plane then I'm in a hole and the wind is slowing so I point it downwind again and so it goes next thing I'm far from where I launched.
So perhaps you need to be more powered up with a bigger sail to get on a plane without pointing downwind, then you can stay on a plane and point upwind a bit. This way you won't drift downwind.
To keep from rounding up hang from the boom more, keep your front leg straight and your back knee bent, push and pull.


I think it is about finding the balance point There are number of different factors in play once you get on plane. You are in the straps, I haven't gotten that far. I am sailing on an inland lake where I must get back to my launch point. I spend a lot of my sailing time sailing as close to the wind as possible so I don't end up getting beat against a concrete seawall. I Have not experienced being powered to the point of being able to rip on a reach and get back. I know the feeling of getting blown downwind. Not a very informative post. Maybe its the Pinot Noir. Going to keep working at it.

Well there it is, you need a bigger sail so you are more powered up.
In my situation I'm on an 8M, my biggest sail, If I want to stay upwind I can't be pointing the board downwind to get on a plane, I have to just slog back and forth and that's not as fun. I need a 10M sail.
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Darbonne



Joined: 27 Jan 2012
Posts: 127

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beaglebuddy wrote:
Darbonne wrote:
beaglebuddy wrote:
Struggling with this now myself while in the straps I keep getting blown downwind, it seems that because the conditions are marginal and gusty here I have to point the board on a broad reach to get on a plane then I'm in a hole and the wind is slowing so I point it downwind again and so it goes next thing I'm far from where I launched.
So perhaps you need to be more powered up with a bigger sail to get on a plane without pointing downwind, then you can stay on a plane and point upwind a bit. This way you won't drift downwind.
To keep from rounding up hang from the boom more, keep your front leg straight and your back knee bent, push and pull.


I think it is about finding the balance point There are number of different factors in play once you get on plane. You are in the straps, I haven't gotten that far. I am sailing on an inland lake where I must get back to my launch point. I spend a lot of my sailing time sailing as close to the wind as possible so I don't end up getting beat against a concrete seawall. I Have not experienced being powered to the point of being able to rip on a reach and get back. I know the feeling of getting blown downwind. Not a very informative post. Maybe its the Pinot Noir. Going to keep working at it.

Well there it is, you need a bigger sail so you are more powered up.
In my situation I'm on an 8M, my biggest sail, If I want to stay upwind I can't be pointing the board downwind to get on a plane, I have to just slog back and forth and that's not as fun. I need a 10M sail.


You may be correct, But it is sort of a catch 22 situation. I am not sure I can handle the power yet. I have heard people talk about this point where you are trying to breakthrough to the next level. I am not going shopping for a 10.0 just yet. I might rig one of the 12.0's on a 5-10mph day. Maybe the fall winds will help me breakthrough with my 5.0 or 8.0. I am also going to a regatta in Oct. it will be the first time I have sailed with others, and I am sure I will learn a lot.
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d0uglass



Joined: 28 May 2004
Posts: 1055
Location: Bonita Springs, Florida

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A daggerboard or center fin helps prevent side-slipping when you're going slow, but it hurts you when you're trying to plane.

That's because the daggerboard or center fin keeps the board from breaking free of the water like it needs to do to plane, effectively locking you in a low gear.

The speed-limiting effect may not be as obvious with the small half-moon shaped center fin on the START as it would be with a larger daggerboard. But I still think you'll be better off with no center fin at all when you want to plane.

Others have mentioned some other things that will help you plane, but I'll say them again.

1. You need lots of power and you need to be "committed" to the sail. So use as big a sail as you can handle and really lean your weight onto it.
2. A 70 cm skeg could help, especially when you are using an 8.0 or larger sail, because a bigger sail needs to be paired with a bigger tail fin.
3. Weight placement is really important. If you sink the tail or tilt the board to windward you will slow down and turn upwind. The trick is to lean so heavily against the sail that there is almost no weight on your feet. Pointing your toes really hard also helps keep the board flat when you're accelerating. You want your feet to be pushing across the top of the board like you were scootching a rug across the floor; not pressing down on the board like you were standing on a scale.

Good luck.

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Darbonne



Joined: 27 Jan 2012
Posts: 127

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

d0uglass wrote:
A daggerboard or center fin helps prevent side-slipping when you're going slow, but it hurts you when you're trying to plane.

That's because the daggerboard or center fin keeps the board from breaking free of the water like it needs to do to plane, effectively locking you in a low gear.

The speed-limiting effect may not be as obvious with the small half-moon shaped center fin on the START as it would be with a larger daggerboard. But I still think you'll be better off with no center fin at all when you want to plane.

Others have mentioned some other things that will help you plane, but I'll say them again.

1. You need lots of power and you need to be "committed" to the sail. So use as big a sail as you can handle and really lean your weight onto it.
2. A 70 cm skeg could help, especially when you are using an 8.0 or larger sail, because a bigger sail needs to be paired with a bigger tail fin.
3. Weight placement is really important. If you sink the tail or tilt the board to windward you will slow down and turn upwind. The trick is to lean so heavily against the sail that there is almost no weight on your feet. Pointing your toes really hard also helps keep the board flat when you're accelerating. You want your feet to be pushing across the top of the board like you were scootching a rug across the floor; not pressing down on the board like you were standing on a scale.

Good luck.


Thanks, this helps. Now if there was just some wind. Time to break out the 12.0 next time the wind is 10mph. What could possibly go wrong?
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Sailboarder



Joined: 10 Apr 2011
Posts: 396

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:06 am    Post subject: Re: Removable center fin advice Reply with quote

Darbonne wrote:
Another problem I am having is that when I finally do get on plane and try to lean back in the harness the rig comes back and I have a tendency to push the nose of the board into the wind. I haven't quite figured out how to maintain a straight line on plane. I tried putting pressure on my front foot and it seemed to help but overall steering took a lot of effort.


To maintain a straight line on plane or not, you have to get your sail well positionned with respect to your board Center of Lateral Resistance. When off the plane, the sail need to be quite forward. On the plane, the sail is backward. Going super fast, the sail will be even more back.

If your sail is too aft, the board will turn upwind. Now, if you sail with a harness, the sail will position itself in front of you without effort. If there is something wrong in your setup, and the sail is too much backward, the board will turn upwind. To compensate, you can move your hips forward to bring the sail forward. This might be good enough, but your weight will then be on your front foot and this is not confortable. You can also move your both feet forward on the board, this should be confortable.

If you have steady wind and easy conditions, you can do all your sailing without footsrtaps. Off the plane, your feet will be forward and closer to the center. As you accelerate and get on the plane, you will go further back and off the center of your board. You can easily adjust your position to be confortable, with weight on both feets. In theory, with a harness all this can be done without using the arms. In practice, only sail trimming is required if your lines are long enough to sail hooked in while off the plane.

What if you want to achieve the same in the footstraps and on the plane? You need to have a good board and rig setup. Assuming your sail and harness lines are properly rigged, the starting point should be :

-mast base in center position
-boom at collarbone level
-strap in intermediate settings, second hole from the back

From there, you might want to work on your technique if it is still turning. Is the board level from side to side? Is your weight commited on the harness?

You can finally tune your rig and board. If you need to put your weight forward to go straight, you can

-move your mast base backward by 1 cm
-move your boom up 1 cm
-repeat

If this doesn't work after a few iterations, you can move your footraps forward one hole and try again.

Hope this helps!
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beaglebuddy



Joined: 10 Feb 2012
Posts: 673

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Removable center fin advice Reply with quote

Sailboarder wrote:
Darbonne wrote:
Another problem I am having is that when I finally do get on plane and try to lean back in the harness the rig comes back and I have a tendency to push the nose of the board into the wind. I haven't quite figured out how to maintain a straight line on plane. I tried putting pressure on my front foot and it seemed to help but overall steering took a lot of effort.


To maintain a straight line on plane or not, you have to get your sail well positionned with respect to your board Center of Lateral Resistance. When off the plane, the sail need to be quite forward. On the plane, the sail is backward. Going super fast, the sail will be even more back.

If your sail is too aft, the board will turn upwind. Now, if you sail with a harness, the sail will position itself in front of you without effort. If there is something wrong in your setup, and the sail is too much backward, the board will turn upwind. To compensate, you can move your hips forward to bring the sail forward. This might be good enough, but your weight will then be on your front foot and this is not confortable. You can also move your both feet forward on the board, this should be confortable.

If you have steady wind and easy conditions, you can do all your sailing without footsrtaps. Off the plane, your feet will be forward and closer to the center. As you accelerate and get on the plane, you will go further back and off the center of your board. You can easily adjust your position to be confortable, with weight on both feets. In theory, with a harness all this can be done without using the arms. In practice, only sail trimming is required if your lines are long enough to sail hooked in while off the plane.

What if you want to achieve the same in the footstraps and on the plane? You need to have a good board and rig setup. Assuming your sail and harness lines are properly rigged, the starting point should be :

-mast base in center position
-boom at collarbone level
-strap in intermediate settings, second hole from the back

From there, you might want to work on your technique if it is still turning. Is the board level from side to side? Is your weight commited on the harness?

You can finally tune your rig and board. If you need to put your weight forward to go straight, you can

-move your mast base backward by 1 cm
-move your boom up 1 cm
-repeat

If this doesn't work after a few iterations, you can move your footraps forward one hole and try again.

Hope this helps!

Put simply, try to lean out not back. Keep your front leg straight and pushing and keep you back leg bent and pulling or "moonwalking" Push thru the toes to keep the board flat on the water. Hang from the boom more to keep mast foot pressure.
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Sailboarder



Joined: 10 Apr 2011
Posts: 396

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Removable center fin advice Reply with quote

beaglebuddy wrote:

Put simply, try to lean out not back.

That may be the problem too. But if the setup is wrong, it will always feel hard and difficult.

beaglebuddy wrote:
Keep your front leg straight and pushing and keep you back leg bent and pulling or "moonwalking"

No. The OP is asking how to go straight, not how to turn. When going straight on a reach and on a balanced setup, both legs can be straight with equal pressure on both.

beaglebuddy wrote:
Push thru the toes to keep the board flat on the water. Hang from the boom more to keep mast foot pressure.
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beaglebuddy



Joined: 10 Feb 2012
Posts: 673

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, in my experience once you are planing and in the straps you are no longer steering by sail center of effort (mast tilted forward and aft) but rather with foot pressure
The faster one goes the further back one stands on the board and the further back the mast is tilted, (to a certain point of course) this moves the COE of the sail to the rear of the board which results in the board trying to turn upwind.
Gentle pressure by the front foot counter acts that, so does hanging from the boom more which creates mast foot pressure which creates a similar effect as pushing with the front foot, it pushed the board downwind.
Trying to turn downwind at speed by tilting the mast forward will result in a catapult.
All this keeps you going in a straight line as opposed to rounding upwind.
Am I missing something here?
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