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which board to chose : jp freestyle wave or thruster?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13861

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OTOH, multiple fins are more likely to hook up and plane away from imperfect landings*, so as with every other aspect of WSing, it's all about choices among valid options.

* Aren't loops ya don't plane out of just crashes or stalls preceded by loop attempts. Wink
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, if you want to use a crutch to avoid learning how to compensate for an imperfect landing, while also giving up height in the jump (and speed overall.)

The original poster says he's working on loops and sailing in choppy bay conditions...that's not where a multifin board excels. Quite the opposite.

isobars wrote:
OTOH, multiple fins are more likely to hook up and plane away from imperfect landings*, so as with every other aspect of WSing, it's all about choices among valid options.

* Aren't loops ya don't plane out of just crashes or stalls preceded by loop attempts. Wink

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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With way over 50,000, maybe 75,000, miles on multifinned boards, I find that most of their detractors have never ridden well-designed and well-executed ones. Many are slow, some are not, and the good ones eat up any chop I've ever found even when deliberately landing sideways in chop at full speed under full power. I leave it to the pros to seek perfection; I just wanna play like three puppies on a sugar high and have a lot of fun; passing BAFfers while doing that is just a means of getting them out of the way, not an objective in itself.

I have no idea why multi fins would inhibit height; their enhanced precision and pointing ability in rough water helps me nail exactly the exact piece of chop or swell I choose for maximum lift, and their enhanced lateral bite lets me land at speed pointed where I want to go next, rather than feeling compelled to land pointed off the wind THEN turning where I want to go. For me, that requires more care with a single fin than with properly executed multiple fins.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not a multifin detractor, not at all. I personally am considering purchasing one in the near future, for wave sailing. I do weigh in when you substitute inappropriate equipment or technique because that's how you learned to sail, whether it's your back foot first advocacy, manhandling the rig during a jibe (both of which I attribute to you being an inefficient sailor, as the people who actually sail with you pointed out earlier this year) or you now suggesting that multifin boards are as good as single fin boards in chop (which seemingly nobody in the windsurfing universe believes, except you). But hey, maybe they're not "well designed and well executed." And certainly if you're landing your jumps sideways they'll help keep you from falling. In any event, the reason they are slower than single fin boards (and therefore get less height) is the increased drag of all the fins. That drag presents no trouble whatsoever to a wavesailor, who is drawing speed and power from the wave.


isobars wrote:
With way over 50,000, maybe 75,000, miles on multifinned boards, I find that most of their detractors have never ridden well-designed and well-executed ones. Many are slow, some are not, and the good ones eat up any chop I've ever found even when deliberately landing sideways in chop at full speed under full power. I leave it to the pros to seek perfection; I just wanna play like three puppies on a sugar high and have a lot of fun; passing BAFfers while doing that is just a means of getting them out of the way, not an objective in itself.

I have no idea why multi fins would inhibit height; their enhanced precision and pointing ability in rough water helps me nail exactly the exact piece of chop or swell I choose for maximum lift, and their enhanced lateral bite lets me land at speed pointed where I want to go next, rather than feeling compelled to land pointed off the wind THEN turning where I want to go. For me, that requires more care with a single fin than with properly executed multiple fins.

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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13861

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeconicPuffin wrote:
I'm not a multifin detractor, not at all.

You say they're [all] slow. That's not true.

PeconicPuffin wrote:
I do weigh in when you substitute inappropriate equipment

There ya go again. Saying a Bonzer or some other multifin boards are inappropriate (in the Gorge) is simply ignorant, arrogant, and stupid, plain and simple.

PeconicPuffin wrote:
manhandling the rig during a jibe

I DON'T handle the rig during a jibe. Again, your comment makes no sense.

PeconicPuffin wrote:
you being an inefficient sailor, as the people who actually sail with you pointed out earlier this year

I don't know what others said or say about my sailing efficiency, but you're pronouncing my PREFERENCE for lots of power "inefficiency", implying there's something wrong about liking tons of power, for both practical and preferential reasons? Again, stupid ... and about as arrogant as anything I've ever seen or heard. Does that make Dale Cook and Bruce Peterson and Johnny O, all of whom I outweigh, total imbeciles because they prefer bigger sails than I do? Am I wrong because I prefer milk to beer, sporty cars to luxury cars, blue to red, and ripping to cruising? I laugh my ass off -- to myself -- every windy day when many of the sailors out there have to slog much of the time or even re-rig once or twice while I'm powered up 100% of the time and never overpowered, and when they have to sail back and forth in the frigging rut while I fly miles up and down the river on my little wave boards and wave fins. If that's inefficient or wrong, you can throw me in an inefficient, "wrong" brier patch all day, any day, and every day. It's called fun, Michael, and its only rule is "Don't hit nobody". The rest of you can follow all your little rules about FFF only, no boards under 90 liters, cams, pumping, tricks and freestyle rule, little bitty sails with all their limitations, starboard must hold his line, vote for Big Government, etc., but I'm by God going to rig big, don my body armor, and get as far from rules and constraints as I possibly can; I get enough damned rules at tax time, on the highway, and when I want to fertilize my lawn. Hell, I had FAR more freedom in the military than any small businessman has today, and no pompous internet pipsqueak is going to convince me my informed WSing choices are "wrong" just by saying so; they gotta back it up with facts.

PeconicPuffin wrote:
you now suggesting that multifin boards are as good as single fin boards in chop (which seemingly nobody in the windsurfing universe believes, except you).

Me ... and every non-pro WSer (and Tom James, in print, in his magazine) I've asked after s/he rode a Bonzer over the last 20 years. The only exception was "Greg", who preferred to remove his Bonzer fins because he never turned between his wide jibes. "Joe", at least twice the sailor I'll ever be, commented primarily on how quickly it planed ... even though it was about 25 liters smaller than any board he had ever ridden.

PeconicPuffin wrote:
But hey, maybe they're not "well designed and well executed."

Some are not, while others are designed well but for a different audience, as shown by large fleets of magazine testers of all skill levels.

PeconicPuffin wrote:
And certainly if you're landing your jumps sideways they'll help keep you from falling

Falling isn't the issue. Every jumping tutorial and iW thread I've ever read says, in one way or another, to "bear off in the air to land in a broad reach to prevent spinout". I can not only land pointed sideways on a Bonzer, but do it on a full plane at full power with no obvious sideslip ... if I so choose. That provides a lot of variety and freedom in one's sailing and is a lot tougher with only one fin. If that's a crutch, break my leg ... please.

PeconicPuffin wrote:
In any event, the reason they are slower

AGAIN with the uninformed, limited, experience with multifinned boards. Bonzers have flat rockers, and their little, properly canted and toed, Bonzer fins provide such control in gnarly water that few recreational sailors are willing to push their single finned boards as fast; IOW, take the side fins off a Bonzer and most recreational sailors would go slower, not faster, in heavy terrain because the reduced drag is more than offset by the reduced control, especially in huge gusts. The guy with the side biters will also rip off tighter jibes in heavy chop or closely-set waves, according to countless testimonials from me, Tom James (ex-WSMag editor), and many testers and owners in between.

Bottom line on speed: there are slow multifin boards and fast multifin boards. Some people have stated right here their preference to gain control by going slower due to extra drag; I prefer to gain mine by keeping the speed and gaining CONTROL. They are not mutually exclusive, and I love the feeling of ADDING the power from the wind to the power of the swell; I WANNA outrun the swell.
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jingebritsen



Joined: 21 Aug 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

some things never change. some very slowly. for me, bonzers stank when they came out. but some folks liked them. those that liked them tended to slow and inefficient to plane. most no longer windsurf.


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PeconicPuffin



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:

I don't know what others said or say about my sailing efficiency, but you're pronouncing my PREFERENCE for lots of power "inefficiency", implying there's something wrong about liking tons of power, for both practical and preferential reasons?


No that's not what I'm doing. Between the people who sail with you who described your sailing, and the video that was on Youtube of you sailing, it was clear that coaxing a board onto a plane with less than full power is not a skill you have. It dovetailed perfectly with you "preference" for manhandling the rig in jibes, and more importantly the lack of appreciation for why BFF is a learning dead end. You depend on high wind and swell in lieu of finesse. Lots of windsurfers like tons of power, but the good ones can all get going underpowered. BTW the wave quad fin boards that are out there are not designed with tons of power as their sweet spot...they're wave boards, for wavesailing. Wavesailing generally works better powered to underpowered, not overpowered. It's a finesse sport. In any event, nobody has a preference to not plane, and good sailors don't need to be overpowered to sail fast.

jingebritsen wrote:


some things never change. some very slowly. for me, bonzers stank when they came out. but some folks liked them. those that liked them tended to slow and inefficient to plane.


I sail with a guy who still takes his Bonzer out from time to time, in messy conditions. It's not fast and it doesn't jump high, but he still sails it. I think it's cool that he enjoys a board he's had for 25 years.

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isobars



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both of you guys are fabricating nonsense based on anecdotal experience. John has insisted that anything under 90L is too small, yet says he didn't like Bonzers (which ran ~65 L; the big ones were barges). Good trial! "Nobody sails Bonzers anymore"? Well, of course not ... not where he has to pump 11-foot boards onto a plane with a 6.5.

PP says he knows a guy who is slow, and declares that the board's fault. PP also says that board is 25 years old ... which predates Gorge Animal Bonzers. PP declares that I can't finesse a board, rather than prefer being wound, despite never having sailed with me, especially when I've been the only one left on the river after the wind backed off and I'm milking continual planing from 65L and five fins @ 190#. (That’s fun, but it’s a different kind of sailing.) He says some video of my full-speed dismount is evidence that I can't plane (huh)? He bases his claims of how I sail on one guy's ("people", PP calls him) repeated established lies, choosing to ignore others' testimony that I sail as or better than I say I do (I absolutely blow right by PP's source even on my big bouncy New School board).

PP ignores (or disagrees with?) WSMag's oft-published test assessments that wave boards need power to achieve "top gear"/full speed and pinch well in onshore conditions, and ignores the basic physics mandate that high-g turns scrub off power which must be replaced. He can't get over the fact that I prefer full power to pumping onto a plane and slogging in the holes, or that my sails are deliberately designed by a NASA aeronautical engineering consultant to run at least a half-meter big (ask Dana Miller about them). And for some inexplicable reason PP keeps claiming, from 3,000 miles away, that a sail spinning from port to starboard, untouched, in free air, is being "manhandled".

Whatever.

PP sez “the good ones can all get going underpowered”, “good sailors don't need to be overpowered to sail fast”, and “Wavesailing generally works better powered to underpowered, not overpowered. It's a finesse sport”. Great … but some of us don’t want to just “get by”, don’t want to wait for gravity to replace the power/speed we scrubbed off, and are sailing in onshore conditions. I see far better sailors than I out there every day on smaller sails, and am astounded how much precious sailing time they’re willing to waste slogging just so they can carry a half-meter less sail. Yes, some of them outrun me once they get going, but my GOD they slog a lot, and I mean a LOT on the holier days. Fick that! Life’s too short to waste time slogging when it's windy.

I suggest you folks read PP's blog primarily for entertainment purposes, at least until he grows a pair, learns how to enjoy excess power so he can plane more easily and more often in highly variable winds, and learns to go BFF in the same conditions CoachG, LeeD, some Gorge instructors, and many others here do. "Finesse" is for lulls, ballerinas, BFF in marginal winds, and those who simply prefer milking the wind despite the time they thus spend slogging. Maybe when I get too old or ill to sail powered the way I prefer, I'll rig smaller.

Naaaaah; that's too much work, seriously. Trusting my gear and letting it do most of the work requires much less effort. The days I put in 10 hours and stop only because I can't see Washington any longer are the ones on which I'm rigged ~20% bigger than most guys my size on the steadier/thermal days, simply because slogging and pumping are work I don't have to fool with and I'm never overpowered in the true sense: out of control. If occasional fanning isn't sufficient (John says it doesn't help; maybe he needs more practice at it), I throw more square meters at it and burn less pasta. I'm out there to play, not work.

Is it any wonder why I post so much in the first person -- i.e., use *I* a lot? It’s because I’m not so arrogant as to presume (or especially tell, without valid explanation) others how they should sail. I tells ya what works for me, what I prefer, and why it works for me, then I let you choose for yourselves how you want to sail.

What a concept. Compare that to these people who insist there’s only one way to live your lives.

How boring!

Why would any lurkers care about this debate? Because it's instructive for MANY people on both sides of it.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
PP says he knows a guy who is slow, and declares that the board's fault. PP also says that board is 25 years old ... which predates Gorge Animal Bonzers.


It's a Gorge Animal Bonzer, so I may have the age wrong. The otherwise fast sailor is not fast on it. That's not blame, I think the board is doing what it's supposed to do. I still aspire to own a multifin wave board, and I don't expect it to be fast.

As stated previously, I do go BFF in extreme gust/small board conditions. But for the rest of my windsurfing I take off the training wheels.

As for the "video of your full speed dismount" and the windsurfing that proceeds it...if you would please ask Wooot to remove the "private" setting, I'm sure you could straighten me out with the incontrovertible visual proof. As I wrote then "Isobars talks a lot about technique in this forum, and I think it would be instructive for readers to match up his sailing with his descriptions. "
http://www.iwindsurf.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=23986&highlight=

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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13861

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeconicPuffin wrote:
The otherwise fast sailor is not fast on it

Going fast on freeride gear is a different skillset than going fast on little sinkers ... presuming his is a small Bonzer. Besides, do you truly think your bud's experience overrides Tom James' published head to head tests of a dozen high-wind Gorge boards that rated Gorge Animals among the Gorge's very finest "nuke" boards?

PeconicPuffin wrote:
I do go BFF in extreme gust/small board conditions. But for the rest of my windsurfing I take off the training wheels.

As I've stated over ...
and over ...
and over ...
and over ...
etc.

PeconicPuffin wrote:
please ask Wooot to remove the "private" setting,

It's not Wooot's ... or my ... video. Besides, all it purportedly shows of me is my dismount, and not even a good one according to some comments (I haven't seen it). It relies on good wind clear to shore in the sheltered bay, which is a spotty proposition. It also has nothing to do with how I sail; it's a
d i s m o u n t .

I posted my comments on Wooot's veracity later in that thread.
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