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What impact will 13-15 liters make?
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jwallace



Joined: 09 May 1998
Posts: 124
Location: SF Bay Area

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:19 pm    Post subject: What impact will 13-15 liters make? Reply with quote

Currently sail old freeride board (Bic Veloce 101 ltr, 278 cm) with 5.4 and 6.3 sails. I do most of my sailing these days in Berkeley (don't have the free time I once had to sail other sites around the Bay). Anyway, my ability would be intermediate/advanced (i.e., jibe, plane, feet in straps, in harness, etc.). My challenge is that Berkeley wind, while consistent, is consistently not enough for my current set up. I need a pretty solid 23-24 to be happily planing (I weigh 185 lbs). So I'm considering picking up an older used freeride board I've found in SoCal. It's a relatively similar shape to what I have today, but 114 liters. Am curious to hear what amount of wind I would need for that larger size. I'm hoping to find something that will be usable on the more normal Berkeley winds of 18-19.

Thx!

jw
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 1278
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:59 pm    Post subject: Re: What impact will 13-15 liters make? Reply with quote

114 Ltrs and 185 lbs, with an 18-19MPH wind should get you going great
with a 6.5 and maybe even a 5.7 if you're moderately efficient.

-Craig

jwallace wrote:
Currently sail old freeride board (Bic Veloce 101 ltr, 278 cm) with 5.4 and 6.3 sails. I do most of my sailing these days in Berkeley (don't have the free time I once had to sail other sites around the Bay). Anyway, my ability would be intermediate/advanced (i.e., jibe, plane, feet in straps, in harness, etc.). My challenge is that Berkeley wind, while consistent, is consistently not enough for my current set up. I need a pretty solid 23-24 to be happily planing (I weigh 185 lbs). So I'm considering picking up an older used freeride board I've found in SoCal. It's a relatively similar shape to what I have today, but 114 liters. Am curious to hear what amount of wind I would need for that larger size. I'm hoping to find something that will be usable on the more normal Berkeley winds of 18-19.

Thx!

jw
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14319

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Should", maybe, and I have no way of knowing how closely the sensor data and the wind on the water agree, and there are many kinds and shapes of boards and sails out there. but if I launch my 6.2/115L combination in 20 mph average winds, I'm quickly bored because I'm just ... maybe ... planing. I can't maneuver, or jump, or plane through lulls, or slash, or go reely reely fast. I'm just ... planing ... until the wind drops to 19 or 14 mph, or I bobble in a jibe, or I make an ill-advised trim adjustment, and I stop planing and get out the book I took along. That ... or pump like mad, wait for a gust, milk a little swell, bag my sail way out, and/or tiptoe across the pond ... crap ... I'd rather just wait 'til the average is 21 or 23 and liven things up.

That ... or move to a site where 20 mph sensor data = powered up on a 5.5.

Point: does any of know so precisely what the ambient wind speed is on the water at our sail that we can compare 18-19 to 20 mph with any validity? Over the internet?

"Oh, I can. I can."

Yeah? How? Wink
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2407

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You'd gain maybe 1.5 mph windspeed on the bottom end to keep and get you planing. More important, you gain the confidence that when the winds do die to 2 mph, you can uphaul and slog home easily.
Given that Berkeley normally throws in 6.0 winds for someone 150 lbs., and this was a banner year for no wind at Berkeley, your 6.3 would normally be too small for most light days here.
I've been using the 6.5's for almost everyday sailing at Berkeley. Most modern 6.5's can handle gusts up to 28mph, as long as the water isn't too crazy.
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jwallace



Joined: 09 May 1998
Posts: 124
Location: SF Bay Area

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zirtaeb wrote:
You'd gain maybe 1.5 mph windspeed on the bottom end to keep and get you planing. More important, you gain the confidence that when the winds do die to 2 mph, you can uphaul and slog home easily.
Given that Berkeley normally throws in 6.0 winds for someone 150 lbs., and this was a banner year for no wind at Berkeley, your 6.3 would normally be too small for most light days here.
I've been using the 6.5's for almost everyday sailing at Berkeley. Most modern 6.5's can handle gusts up to 28mph, as long as the water isn't too crazy.

This was a lousy year there, for sure!

What is frustrating about my Berkeley experience is that a simple 5 mph (e.g., 18-19 vs 24-25 both with gusts 2-3 over that) is the difference between me at hit and miss planning on my 6.3 (new Ezzy Panther) and just screaming along on my Ezzy 5.4 (circa 1998!).

I can see the marina and restaurant from my house in the hills. So generally I don't go regardless of what the sensor says unless I see several out on the water clearly jamming.

Alas, my experience is that 70% of the days are 18-19 with gusts 2-3 that I'm trying to make sailable with different equipment that does not break the bank. I understand Mike's point about how fun is it planing in light wind. But this isn't like SoCal sailing in those conditions. There are plenty of people that are having a good time. Maybe not an A+ day... but better than those who chose to go for a run or bike ride. Of the last 30%... at least the last couple years has been either dead or maybe screaming days 10% of season... at lease imho.

Anyway, I was hoping that my 6.3 would make a difference this year. But in all honesty, I only noticed a bit more bottom performance than my previous 5.7. Hence my interest in a more floaty board. From what you're saying, sounds like it won't make much of a difference.
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1008keyroute



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My take, go big. I'm no lightweight....so it all scales up a bit for me.
I used to wavesail Maui on 80-90ltrs, but find east bay takes a little more size.

120L flow with a 7.5 sail has offered good airs and swell slashes this season.
The key element to tie it all together is a generous fin, decide if you want to go slalom (mfc liquid pro..etc) or manuverable (mfc K1-free ride). Something big like 36/38cm.

Too much wind will make this setup fin over, but You already seem to have the gear for more wind.
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windsrf



Joined: 01 May 1998
Posts: 182

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Much of your issue may be related to sensor location and "precision vs. accuracy".

After many years of sailing at His Lords and Pt. Isabel and ALWAYS using my handheld rotameter at same locations each time, I can state with some authority that the Berk sensor reads high by at least 2-4 mph, probably due to its location way above the roof of the restaurant where it must be to avoid the wind blockage that would otherwise occur. Standard mantra is that winds slow as they approach waterline/elevation due to surface drag, etc. Thus, I don't even bother to try sailing there unless iWind avg is 19-20, and at that point my gauge standing on the riprap is probably reading 15-17. Under those conditions, I almost always go out with my 7.0 and 105 L Mike's Lab (vol approximate - I'm 6'6" and 180). It would have to be avg 18-20 with MY Gauge to use my 6.3. Then if avg is mid-20's I can enjoy my 5.6 (but I usually rig big anyway - better to be OP'd).

Conversely, at Pt. Isabel the gauge reads "low", probably due to location but also due to channeling of the winds there. My gauge at the shoreline might read quite low compared to few hundred yards offshore. My practice there is to go when iWind reports avg of at least 17. IWind gauge is over by the radio station bldg/sewage treatment plant and can miss the winds if they are blowing more from Gate towards Carquinez Bridge.

Hope this helps - but you may still often need a larger sail, at least the case this year.

David
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PAmuddog



Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 130

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howdy!

I would suggest you bite the bullet and invest in a more modern board, 2006 or later. Believe me, the fun factor is well worth it, especially since you need to maximize your sessions.

The extra volume in the old school board is most likely in the thickness. You need width and an effiecent planning bottom surface.

The improvement in boards in the last few years is astounding. They plane up in a fart, jybe like a dream, and handle all the chop thrown at it. One will work well with your Panther, probably in most conditions Berkeley has to offer. Toss the 1998 Ezzy or use it for a landsailor.

Being the same weight I would recommend a flat 100-115L short and wide Freeride board for early planning. The wider the better. Some Freestyle boards work if they are more "freeridey" like the JP's, RRd's etc. Pass on the dedicated Freestyle board.

Freestyle/wave boards have more rocker (for wave riding) and will be sticky to plane so pass on those.

Slalom boards plane early but usually have hard rails and tend to be very nervous on the water for an intermediate sailor. Pass on those.

Demo or rent a prospective purchase. Modern freeride boards are forgiving and easy to sail. Pass on it if you are having trouble during your first session.

Well, that's my nickles worth.
Hope you find what you need.

Happy sailing! Smile
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tomg



Joined: 10 Apr 2000
Posts: 199

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get something with 120 liters. The extra volume won't affect performance and more modern shapes are plenty fun. i have a JP Super X that i got used some 8 years ago for not a lot of dough. I'm 165 lbs and the floation is really nice when it starts shuttin down. A board like that should sell sub $450 these days.

Tomg
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rlemmens



Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 189

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey,
I also sail a lot in the bay area. Im 200lbs and use a 107 freestyle board with my large sail being a 5.4. Decide what your goal is and buy a board around that. As people said, a new style board would be the easiest. The volume of the older boards was distributed differently than a modern board, so now since they have less surface area a modern smaller liter board often feels more stable. I can get going in 16-19 easily.
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