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cannot get weight forward on jibe entry
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isobras



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
Posts: 439

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They're on huge boards, with giant sails, are on flat water, yet are STILL laying their sails down far enough to get their rigs out of their line of sight, which is all I suggested.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1493

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess that I should add that while the above link is about racing gybes, I am always trying to emulate what they are doing while making a well powered gybe.

Certainly, we all do different gybes depending on the wind, board size, sail, skill and water state, but the vast majority of recreational sailors just want to make a fast, smooth, carving, planing gybe with nothing fancy. They are a challenge to nail the majority of the time.
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2407

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most slalom sailors lay their sails down about 45 degrees, no more, hardly ever less. That is the standard for a loaded leeward rail planing jibe. As said, a slower entry pivot jibe can be more straight up, while a leader showing off at the final mark might drag his harness lines.
We all can turn much sharper, but using less sail, easier handling boards in water state WE get to pick, but not at the set marks.
Average slalom rig being used by PWA level sailors is about a 7.8 sail in winds of 17-28mph, when most rec sailors are using 5.5's. Average board size is around 100 liters, 65cm wide, 13lbs., not something we'd choose to ride in those winds.
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isobras



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
Posts: 439

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
the vast majority of recreational sailors just want to make a ... planing gybe with nothing fancy. They are a challenge to nail the majority of the time.

Then why do the majority sail downwind waiting ... waiting ... waiting for the wind to shove their sail through its turn, which requires that their speed has dropped well below the ambient wind speed, which usually means their board has stopped planing? I can understand why jibe newbies make that mistake, but it goes on ALL DAY LONG with people who rip across the chopswell with speed and ease. I just wanna yell "JIBE YOUR SAIL NOW, BY YOURSELF, WHILE YOU'RE STILL PLANING!" A jibe isn't something we passively wait for the wind to do for us; it's an active act of the sailor, despite the wind once we're up to speed.

MANY people have thanked me profusely for the help my tutorial gave them in getting over the jibe hump, but I've never had anyone say, "I actually TRIED your ideas and they didn't help."
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2407

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's much easier to learn, for a big guy, to blast across the water in a straight line than it is to learn the nuances of a planing jibe in all water and wind states.
One takes 2 years, while the other might take a lifetime.
And of course, WHO is the basic "rec" sailor?
You can make a case for BrucePeterson. Sure, he still races, but he races for fun and to promote his Sailworks sails. He can jibe.
But for sure, for every sailor who can really jibe, there are at least 50 short board sailors who don't come close.
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isobras



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
Posts: 439

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zirtaeb wrote:
It's much easier to learn, for a big guy, to blast across the water in a straight line than it is to learn the nuances of a planing jibe in all water and wind states.

Yep. But the jibes which surprise me are the ones which punctuate carving, airborne, fast, confident, very competent high-wind riffs across the Hatch powered way up on 4.2s with deliberate stall jibes EVERY time. They've sailed the Gorge for MANY years, decades in some cases I know of, and still coast almost to a complete stop so the wind can swing their sail around the mast like a barn door. Their form, footwork, consistency, completion rate, and reaches are excellent, but they are not carving/planing jibes, yet I'm quite sure that last phrase would surprise many of them. And their size is not a factor, as many are much lighter than you. I've got to guess that, in many cases, no one ever told them what the mags harped on long ago: a jibe is an aggressive, not a passive, maneuver.
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2407

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, we're talking REC sailors, not sailors with aspirations of performing at pro levels.
Remember the old days, like 1990, when some sailors actually thought the top women pro sailors could jibe? Watching them practice for races was laughable at best, as every one of them coasted thru and grabbed the mast with both hands, directing the board thru the jibe like a 12' board. Those days, some rec sailors jibed tons better than those girls...talking rec women sailors.
Best examples I've seen of a real jibe is BrucePeterson.
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isobras



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
Posts: 439

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The image is burned into my mind of Bruce sailing across the river at Rowena about 15 feet above everyone else -- literally -- pumping his sail (pre-Hucker, pre-Dale), then setting everything back down onto the river, followed within a heartbeat or two by an explosion of water, presumably a crash ... except that he emerged from the crash heading back the way he had come from, wide open, as though he had simply sailed through someone else's splash at full speed. I couldn't even see what he was doing because of its brevity and the blast of water he put up.

Now change the location to the Lyle sandbar speed run, which ends just short of a big concrete RR bridge abutment which redirects the wind AND gives contenders VERY little time or room to avoid both the concrete and the powerful wind shift. Let's just say his ass emerged before his teakettle from some of those explosions, but at least he hit the wall of air, not the wall of concrete.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3457

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A not so visible factor in those races is their knowledge of crowd control. If you turn in close with Anders Bringdal you better go wide or lay it way down like he will.
Other guys have other styles.
I think most of us do something that works, more or less, and fine tune that for the rest of our lives.
When I try to follow Peter Slade and jibe like him I fall a couple times and then go back to the crappy but good success rate jibe I always had.
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