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A rude ending to the Armstrong myth
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1391

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pointster. Sorry for the delay, but I've just returned from a non drug fuelled (apart from a gallon or two of coffee) night full moon moorland bike blast.

I don't doubt your genuine concerns, and I'm not decying them, but I feel there would be little point in me making a lengthy rebuttal. All I can say is everybody connected with cycling that I have ever spoken to believe the charges against Armstrong are long overdue. It has nothing to do with vindictiveness or jealousy, or that he is American. (We all venerate Greg la Mond as a truly gifted and hopefully clean and honourable pro rider) We all just see it as justice being seen to be done.

The fact is that the ball has at last started to roll. (As it did for Marian Jones who also never failed a drugs test.)The truth WILL eventually out! As is always the case though with famous people, at first, many refuse to accept that they may have been conned.

Incidentally, much of USADA's evidence is claimed to be from Armstrongs come back period (2009/20010) as issome of the sworn evidence from over 10 witnesses made up of team mates (As Boggs stated George is fully credible) and other team members intimately involved in running things. With two accepted arbitration cases still to be heard, none of this evidence must yet be released.
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 1968
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

USADA might have something on Lance, but it makes itself the laughing stock of balanced fairness when it refuses to release the evidence to the one it claims is to be proven liable for such evidence.

A high-minded vision of sporting competition is welcome. No doubt. My thoughts on USADA's ham-fisted handling of their own agenda are entirely based on the power they exercised without offering their accused a fair opportunity to challenge the basis for their claims. As I said before, if USADA was presented with a rider who defended claims of blood doping, etc. By bringing in rafts of witnesses each of whom were intended to testify that he was clean even though a he failed a drug test , USADA would ignore every witness and simply made its determination on the basis or the test results alone.

The judge hearing the recent motions said it best, that USADA's claims were so insufficient that it would be laughed out of court. As one who litigates, I see plenty of BS that makes it to trial. USADA's bar couldn't be more low, yet they failed to meet even that.

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pointster



Joined: 22 Jul 2010
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan. didn't you find it odd that the judge found USADA's charging document to be so vague as to violate Armstrong's constitutional rights, but that he waved it off by saying USADA obviously could submit a sufficiently detailed document, and he was convinced by USADA's assurances that they would give Armstrong the necessary detail before the arbitration? Why didn't he in fact make USADA come back with a proper charging document? It seems to me he was taking a Pontius Pilate stance.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1391

PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) It was Armstrong, not USADA, who took the case to court, to dismiss USADA's claim of jurisdiction over him.

2) His initial multi page submission was rejected by the judge with a scathing comment about this court not being an instrument of Mr. Armstrongs publicity machine. (Exact quote not remembered, but on record for anybody who cares to trace it.)

3)USADA made clear in their submission that to release the names of witnesses and their evidence to Armstrong while he was contesting their authority to sanction him would leave those witnesses open to his proven record of intimidation. They would comply once their authority to charge him was granted, provided he accepted arbitration.

4) The judge rejected Armstrongs submission that USADA had no right to sanction him, and that he would be unable to have a fair hearing as without substance.

5) Armstrong refused arbitration. (That arbitration would most likely have gone before WADA. (World Anti Doping Agency, oor perhaps CAS.) WADA has sided with USADA and wrote a stinging rebuke to UCI warning them to cease their demands to take over the case fron USADA and destroying all credibility in their stance.

Those who wish to believe that Armstrong is a saint, and that USADA are a bunch of incompetants on a witchhunt are free to do so. As for this incessant claiming of never failing a drugs test. Never failing a drugs test is NOT proof that a person is clean. To those who claim so PLEASE EXPLAIN THE CASE OF MARION JONES!

But to those who wish to cling to the Armstrong myth, may I quote two wonderful examples of adoration. a) Phil Liggert, the world wide cycling commentator has now made the claim that the Feds deliberately bribed witnesses to lie about Armstrong. b) A twitter fan posted that it was a witchhunt against a great cyclist and cancer surviver who had beaten the world, and had walked on the moon!!!

Truly, you couldn't make it up!
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1518

PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe the twitter fan was thinking "moon walk" rather than "walked on the moon". Sadly, I doubt it.

Never tweeted, nor will I. Seems to me that only "twits" tweet.
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isobras



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
Posts: 439

PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am certain that I don't care when a bud is tying his shoelaces, and seriously doubt that many people care when I tie mine. And when I want to go windsurfing, the LAST thing I want to do is advertise where I'm going. I'm not waiting around for somebody else to get his act together to share a ride, and crowds and parking are insufferable enough without focusing attention on any one spot. Unlike many women, I don't even need company when I go to the bathroom. (What's WITH that?)
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speedysailor



Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Posts: 841

PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boggsman1 wrote:
I fully expect one day Lance will come clean....
Now that is rather naive. Any admission by Armstrong would lead to numerous fraud accusations and legal suits on behalf of his sponsors. This way, and money really is the bottom line in most controversies like this, he can keep his money but see his marketable image disappear.
isobras wrote:
I am certain that I don't care when a bud is tying his shoelaces, and seriously doubt that many people care when I tie mine. And when I want to go windsurfing, the LAST thing I want to do is advertise where I'm going. I'm not waiting around for somebody else to get his act together to share a ride, and crowds and parking are insufferable enough without focusing attention on any one spot. Unlike many women, I don't even need company when I go to the bathroom. (What's WITH that?)
Ah, are you on the right forum?
GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
A twitter fan posted that it was a witchhunt against a great cyclist and cancer surviver who had beaten the world, and had walked on the moon!!! Truly, you couldn't make it up!
Now there's the value in twitter, it's rather amusing.

Last edited by speedysailor on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2739

PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

seedysailor wrote:
Now that is rather naive.

Well, well.

Brucie's here trying to hide behind one of his 75+ aliases. Do you think your readership to be that naive, big guy?

Where's Sailingjoke today?
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1391

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update.

1) Travis Tygart, head of USADA, has received death threats, and the FBI has been called in.

2) The evidence of Armstrongs career long doping will be sent to UCI at the end of this month.

3) The information contained in the files will be made public before the end of the year.

4) The claimed impact this will have on the public perception will (quote) 'be terrible, and thirty times greater than everything that has come out till now trhrough books (Tyler) or investigation.

5) Armstrong could be called to testify UNDER OATH in the arbitration case againt his former team manager Johan Bruyneal, who has also been charged. The hearing will be in public. (Should he lie under oath he would face the same fate as Marion Jones.)

6) Travis Tygart has the same sworn statements of those involved in the two year long FDA investigation which was suddenly and STILL unexplainedly shut down. (Suspected political interference.)

7) The eight year statute of limitations (under american law) no longer applies in the Armstrong case if the accusation can prove that the athlete who cheated influenced the witnesses who could have testified against him, or he concealed proof or lied under oath. We are CERTAIN that this happened in the Armstrong case, and we'll explain to the UCI when we transmit the dossier, Tygart stated. (Remember Armstrong sued the Sunday Times who accused him of doping, and he won big damages in court, having sworn under oath that he had never doped.)

Despite Armstrong bravado and current media blitz, and political support in high places, there is some inside information to suggest that he is actually in quite a state. I know of no informed cyclists who would like to be in his shoes, as events unfold.
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 1968
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
Update.

1) Travis Tygart, head of USADA, has received death threats, and the FBI has been called in.

2) The evidence of Armstrongs career long doping will be sent to UCI at the end of this month.

3) The information contained in the files will be made public before the end of the year.

4) The claimed impact this will have on the public perception will (quote) 'be terrible, and thirty times greater than everything that has come out till now trhrough books (Tyler) or investigation.

5) Armstrong could be called to testify UNDER OATH in the arbitration case againt his former team manager Johan Bruyneal, who has also been charged. The hearing will be in public. (Should he lie under oath he would face the same fate as Marion Jones.)

6) Travis Tygart has the same sworn statements of those involved in the two year long FDA investigation which was suddenly and STILL unexplainedly shut down. (Suspected political interference.)

7) The eight year statute of limitations (under american law) no longer applies in the Armstrong case if the accusation can prove that the athlete who cheated influenced the witnesses who could have testified against him, or he concealed proof or lied under oath. We are CERTAIN that this happened in the Armstrong case, and we'll explain to the UCI when we transmit the dossier, Tygart stated. (Remember Armstrong sued the Sunday Times who accused him of doping, and he won big damages in court, having sworn under oath that he had never doped.)

Despite Armstrong bravado and current media blitz, and political support in high places, there is some inside information to suggest that he is actually in quite a state. I know of no informed cyclists who would like to be in his shoes, as events unfold.


1. That's terrible.

2. That's conclusory, whether factually correct or not.

3. What is "information contained in the files?" Certain evidence may be revealed, but certainly not all evidence unless nothing is redacted or scrubbed. Will all deposition transcripts be made available without redaction? Will all exculpatory evidence also be included? It will be a canned piece of advocacy, I predict.

4. Maybe, maybe not. Gurgle, is there something that you know about Armstrong that the rest of us do not?

5. Arbitration witnesses are not subject to subpoena. They cannot be compelled to testify with the threat of civil and/or criminal contempt as would be the case if a court of law were handling the dispute.

6. Uh, Gurgle, when allegations are raised to a federal grand jury, as it was with the FDA allegations, the prosecutors have no control whether to charge someone. Only the federal grand jury has indictment power. Of course, federal prosecutors can close an investigate prior to submitting to the grand jury and it is well known that most federal grand juries do return indictments. ("A federal grand jury will indict a ham sandwich.") In this case, the feds had several doping cases collapse and may not have felt comfortable going forward under the evidence it could present.

7. Good luck for a private adjudicator ever concluding there was witness tampering. They simply don't have the resources, and it is a separate charge that almost always occurs after close of evidence.

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