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cannot get weight forward on jibe entry
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isobras



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
Posts: 439

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
1. Water state/wind pretty much determine what type of gybe is going to work best.

2. Guys on 4-5 meter sails are in pretty choppy/rough conditions will most likely be making quick/sharp/snap gybes

3. using the waves if appropriate. this is where Iso is coming from.

4. I don't wave sail so it's hard to comment on the value (if any) of a lay down gybe, but they do look like they may be needed for a very quick turn to keep from outrunning the wave.

5. What I don't like about them (not very good at them) is if the timing is a little off (late) when bringing the sail back up, the force of the wind in the sail can literally yank it out of your hands. Too early and it will toss off the board. I need more practice, but I just seem to avoid mastering lay downs.

6. I also agree that duck gybes are great for planing gybes. They allow you to flip the sail and get powered on the new tack earlier in the gybe so you are less likely to stall.

1. That's one thing I like so much about jibing the sail actively and aggressively rather than waiting for the wind to do it: it works in most conditions with most sails under something like 7 meters.

2. That's what the OP is implying with his 20+ winds and 2' chop. But the term "snap" bothers me, as it implies (to me) a tail pivot rather than a legitimate carve. No way am I going to try what I'd call a snap jibe when I'm at blazing speeds, where the "snap" could be in an ankle.

3. My way is even faster, quicker, smoother, easier, sharper, and consistent on glassy water. In the absence of that, I don't bother to time or locate the jibe with the terrain/swell; the bigger the chop, the deeper I bend my knees, and the hell with timing. I time the jibe with the terrain only when underpowered, when I might need a push from a bump to keep planing.

4. Unless underpowered at the moment, I am ALWAYS outrunning any swell available. When I'm trying to flip my sail ASAP, there's no time for a full laydown or a duck jibe. The primary times I lay the sail to the water are when my turn is so tight that the sail foot would hit the water otherwise, when I wanna, or when I screw up and bend my waist too much ... a bad habit I have because I can't perceive it. But again, a jibe newbie won't be doing a laydown; that's merely an ultimate example that might help the OP visualize when learning to drive his mast into a jibe in rough water. If he can easily see his exit path without tilting his rig into the turn, it's doubtful he has his weight far enough forward.

5. The best laydown technique advice I ever got was "Don't think about it. Just go flat-out full speed beam reach, then say and do simultaneously 'Lay it down, pick it up, jibe it'". It worked the first time (back when I was making maybe 1 in 3 ordinary jibes), and about 6 of my first 10 tries. But I agree it's primarily a trick, and do it primarily when anything less snags the foot on the chop.

6. Only habit prevents us from flipping the sail sooner in ordinary jibes. My best jibes happen when I throw the back hand away virtually simultaneously -- maybe a small fraction of a second later -- with initiating a hard carve. That's how I completed my first planing jibe in about 1988, and it's still how my best ones work. At full speed in a beam reach, as I bump the car door with my hip, I throw the back hand hard into the turn followed ASAP with throwing my front hand across my face. I just jibed -- and sheeted in on the new broad reach -- much quicker than I could utter those Italicized words. There wasn't TIME for my board to slow down, and it's already accelerating. I suspect that most athletic and aggressive WSers could learn that much faster than I did, since I've never been very good at learning repetitive routines.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1136

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobras wrote:
My way is even faster, quicker, smoother, easier, sharper, and consistent on glassy water.


LOL! It's not faster or smoother. It's slower and less smooth. You may feel that it's quicker but given the loss of speed, it's a wash at best.

In big terrain your technique will keep you dry (and in high winds, planing) but in moderate conditions (5.5, two feet of chop) most people are aiming to plane through their jibes and exit with speed, so there's no need to trade those in.

Hey it's an individual sport. You've got your way, and you enjoy it. Great! But recommending inappropriate technique because it's how you learned (while the entire windsurfing instructional world has moved on to more effective and efficient technique) doesn't help anyone.

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http://www.peconicpuffin.com
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isobras



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
Posts: 439

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Pouting Puffin wrote:
isobras wrote:
My way is even faster, quicker, smoother, easier, sharper, and consistent on glassy water.


1. It's not faster or smoother. It's slower and less smooth. You may feel that it's quicker but given the loss of speed, it's a wash at best.

2. in moderate conditions (5.5, two feet of chop) most people are aiming to plane through their jibes and exit with speed, so there's no need to trade those in.

3. inappropriate technique because it's how you learned

4. (while the entire windsurfing instructional world has moved on to more effective and efficient technique) doesn't help anyone.

1. Not only did Michael take my comment out of context to change its meaning, but now the parapraxic paltripolitan promulgates a plethora of philippic portraying himself as knowing, from thousands of miles away, more about my life and windsurfing than I do. Ask him the middle name of my fourth supervisor; I don't know, but I'm sure he does.

2. By the time the wide, coasting, planing, running-downwind jiber exits his style of jibe, my guy will be 100 yards ahead and 50 yards upwind of him. What did my guy trade?

3. How is getting one's weight further forward, carrying more speed throughout, getting past the ubiquitous newbie downwind stall, hitting less chop, staying MUCH farther upwind, handling the mast 100% less, and getting years and a hundred yards ahead of the common red-bellied tufted stalljiber "inappropriate"? MAN, but some of you guys are scared to death of ideas and techniques different from your own. Life ain't canned, guys; pop the top, pour out the lock-step Pringles, and get out there. And that, from a guy who doesn't even freestyle or race.

4. I haven't been to one of their clinics, but of Larned/Cadiz/Gorge instructors/magazines/videos, the best tip I ever got was Monte's boom-to-boom approach. 15 years later, ABK went boom-to-boom, but only partly; they still manhandle the boom more than necessary.

Clinics need quick results, and more conservative techniques get there sooner, often at the expense of subsequent progression, as demonstrated every few seconds all day long at the Hatchery. The standard, wide-glide, rig-fumbling, canned-footwork, one-way-or-the-highway approach is perfectly alright as far as it goes, but was never intended as THE be-all, end-all, only way to turn around (not counting ducks, jumps, etc.).

I suggest that more adventurous readers consider some of the other ways to skin WSing's many cats. Each technique has its own pros and cons, but all have one thing in common: variety. If everyone had the same attitude the Puffin and a few others espouse here, we'd all still be stuck at the head dip and longboard stage.

See http://tinyurl.com/994pzrt . I'm guessing we could add another 10 or 20.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1344

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iso said:
Quote:
2. That's what the OP is implying with his 20+ winds and 2' chop. But the term "snap" bothers me, as it implies (to me) a tail pivot rather than a legitimate carve. No way am I going to try what I'd call a snap jibe when I'm at blazing speeds, where the "snap" could be in an ankle.


Good point if you have steady winds. It's not unusual on a 4 or 5 meter day to loose speed in a hole where a snap gybe is quite efficient on the face of a small wave (or flat water), to maintain upwind advantage if necessary.

I have found that the boom to boom gybe (push/flip the tail hard) works great with the smaller sails (4-6m), plus it's easier to stay on plane. I have great difficulty as the sails get larger (7-11m), simply because the sail doesn't flip/rotate fast enough and clean enough to go from boom to boom. I have to handle the mast in between. Maybe it's my technique or lack of skill, but no doubt it's easier on the small stuff.
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isobras



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
Posts: 439

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
It's not unusual on a 4 or 5 meter day to loose speed in a hole where a snap gybe is quite efficient on the face of a small wave (or flat water), to maintain upwind advantage if necessary.

The ones I'm discussing here aren't snap (non-carving) jibes, but your point and idea are valid when planing through is not an option. Moreover, tight carving jibe and snap jibes have MUCH in common for me. The primary differences for me are the footwork (pivoting rather than carving), the fall (now that my balance fails me when I don't have power in my sail), and the fact that I don't want to stand on the board if I can't plane. Otherwise, the sailspin and footswitch timing and execution are about the same. In fact, a powerful sailspin accelerates the snap very effectively.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1136

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobras wrote:

By the time the wide, coasting, planing, running-downwind jiber exits his style of jibe, my guy will be 100 yards ahead and 50 yards upwind of him.

The alternative to your manhandling the boom jibe is not a broad leisurely downwinder (though it could be). The slow smooth entry into a ripping fast carve will leave "your guy" in the dust.

isobras wrote:
MAN, but some of you guys are scared to death of ideas and techniques different from your own.


Not in the slightest. I will use the tight hard carved manhandled jibe technique you describe in appropriate conditions.

isobras wrote:
And that, from a guy who doesn't even freestyle or race.


It shows. You should "get out there" and try things you haven't.

isobras wrote:
ABK went boom-to-boom, but only partly; they still manhandle the boom more than necessary.


You have no idea what you're talking about. I don't know when ABK adopted a pure and smooth boom to boom flip, but it dates back to at least 1998. See the Andy Brandt (owner and lead instructor of ABK) quote I used earlier.

isobras wrote:
Clinics need quick results, and more conservative techniques get there sooner, often at the expense of subsequent progression, as demonstrated every few seconds all day long at the Hatchery.


Actually, as laboriously spelled out in the "front foot first" thread, clinics depend on a continuum of learning, so that what they teach today helps build to what they teach you next year. Your BFF advocacy is the quintessential example of expediency over developing a technique that allows progression. Anyone familiar with ABK knows that the majority of their student come back for many, many clinics.

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http://www.peconicpuffin.com
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isobras



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
Posts: 439

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeconicPuffin wrote:
The alternative to your manhandling the boom jibe is not a broad leisurely downwinder (though it could be) ... I will use the tight hard carved manhandled jibe technique you describe

You lost me completely. I don't "handle" the boom (or the mast) at all in jibes. I release Side A with each hand, then grab Side B with both hands simultaneously in the sailing positions, often at the same instant my hook engages the line and my feet return to the deck near their new straps ... that's it. Done. Jibe over.

PP wrote:
The slow smooth entry into a ripping fast carve will leave "your guy" in the dust.

In the time your guy takes to clearly enunciate the words "smooth slow entry", mine is already sheeting in and accelerating on the new broad reach. You see, I don't "enter' my jibes; I just jibe. When I do 'em right, I bump my car door shut and throw my back hand away while still in a beam reach, sometimes while pointing well above a beam reach if I'm trying to beat upwind with plenty of (or too much) power. Either way, my guy can, if he wants to go that direction, be driving hard upwind on the new reach while your guy is still running downwind and putzing with his mast.

PP wrote:
isobras wrote:
And that, from a guy who doesn't even freestyle or race.

It shows. You should "get out there" and try things you haven't.

Once again you presume incorrect knowledge of my life. What's WITH that? I got bored with (WSing) racing by 1982 and with freestyle by 1985.

PP wrote:
isobras wrote:
ABK went boom-to-boom, but only partly; they still manhandle the boom more than necessary.

You have no idea what you're talking about. I don't know when ABK adopted a pure and smooth boom to boom flip, but it dates back to at least 1998.

My source was WSMag, in an article about Andy's wife shortly before they married, in which she announced that ABK had begun teaching boom-to-boom jibing. I believe that was this side of Y2k, but even if it was in '98 I had been doing it for a decade before that. If WSMag was wrong, go complain to them.

PP wrote:
isobras wrote:
Clinics need quick results, and more conservative techniques get there sooner, often at the expense of subsequent progression, as demonstrated every few seconds all day long at the Hatchery.

clinics depend on a continuum of learning, so that what they teach today helps build to what they teach you next year. ... that the majority of their student come back for many, many clinics

The vast majority of sailors I see apparently quit after their first step jibe clinic, and the OP hasn't attended even one yet.

PP wrote:
Your BFF advocacy is the quintessential example of expediency over developing a technique that allows progression.

How does a wider knowledge of more alternative techniques -- more arrows in our quiver -- oppose progression? Many people don't WANT to skin their cats the same way day after day after day, just as several top flight sailors here say they BFF when appropriate.

My God ... to think people say *I* argue and nitpick.
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 1930

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobras wrote:
2. By the time the wide, coasting, planing, running-downwind jiber exits his style of jibe, my guy will be 100 yards ahead and 50 yards upwind of him. What did my guy trade?


Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Cough, cough Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Choke, choke, gasp. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Stop it, you are killing me.

Coachg
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scargo



Joined: 19 May 2007
Posts: 248

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although not everyone is on board with changing the feet before the flip, the Dasher video really did the trick for me.

Part of the challenge is filtering through all of the advice, because although everyone means well, oftentimes someone's subjective explanation of what things feel like or should feel like do not translate very well. That's why I like Dasher's clinical dissection. The only potential pitfall is that it may cause people to think too much, and to not see the process as a unified whole. But in my opinion that's far outweighed by being given the analytical tools you need to diagnosis problems and improve.

As to the argument about losing speed during jibes, one might look at how slalom sailors do it.
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2142

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somewhere back in time, like the AlanCadiz days, it was understood there are different ways to jibe. At least 7, possibly 9 different ways.
My way. Go fast, go downwind, flip sail. Move your feet when you feel you should.
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