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How much difference will longer fin make?
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steve1



Joined: 30 Apr 1998
Posts: 236
Location: Alameda, CA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jwallace wrote:
Thx everyone for your replies. Most helpful. A few comments / replies:

- On a 25 mph day, I'll be happily on my 5.4 (planing, jibing, straps, bump/jump, etc.). I recently purchased a new 6.3 and tried it out last Thurs (Aug 2) at 5:30pm. I just missed a pretty large push of wind that ended as soon as I got in the water. It was hit and miss planing for an hour (18 mph, gusts up to 23, lull down to 15). The 6.3 was to replace an older 5.7 which I didn't think was a big enough jump from the 5.4. Surprised that the 6.3 didn't give me the range I though it would. I had thought that the 6.3 would give me consistent planning with winds 18+.

- As with most regulars at Berkeley, I am familiar with how the sensor can be off -- sometimes significantly. Typically, I don't even bother with Berkeley unless I see a pretty regular blow of 23. But since life choices don't afford me the opportunity to frequently go to my other locations I used to sail (Delta, Stick, Crissy), I am trying to make the most of Berkeley and Pt. Isabel (which seems even more iffy these days).

@PeconicPuffin: A couple years ago (~2009/10) I demoed a 100 ltr freestyle board. I did notice the quick planning was muuuuch quicker. However, I found the board to be way more squirrely and unstable. I was not sure if this was because of a shorter board and/or lighter weight.

@steve1: Thx, Steve. I'll look for you next time I'm out. If the docks are sailable, I'll deal with slogging out to the heavier wind just so I get a better rigging space. I've sailed many times out of the restaurant, but I tend to launch from there if it looks like it will take forever to get out there.
Restaurant is nearly as gross as the Stick.


I stopped launching at His Lorships's several years ago when the drug dealers and pimps moved into the phone box and I was teaching my daughter. Its been cleaned up since but I have adjusted to the better rigging by the docks.

One of my boards is a 104l Mistral freestyle board - it planes up really quickly and yes it was pretty "squirrely" until I put a decent slalom fin on it. Now its an early planing blaster.

Modern sails are much less powerful (but a lot more controllable) than sails from the late 90's and early 00's. My newish 6.3 has about the same pull as a 5.7 from a few years back - however it will remain stable and controllable way past the point where my old 5.7 would be massively over powered. The 7.5 I use is a 3 cam race sail from '99. If I were to replace it, I would need to go to 8.3 to get the same pull in light winds.

I'm going to the UK and will be back on the water at Berkeley after August 22nd. But there is a great bunch of sailors down at the "carpets" who will be glad to offer advice.

Steve
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jwallace



Joined: 09 May 1998
Posts: 124
Location: SF Bay Area

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thx, Craig...

I'll try your advice. I think much may have to do with my board. About ten years ago, I was in LA for a summer (sailed Leo and Cabrillo Beach) and had a new RRD (105 ltr IIRC) and a 7.0 Sailworks. I was stunned how quickly that board planed on anything above 15.

cgoudie1 wrote:
Hmmm, at 185 lbs, if the real wind is 15-23 averaging 18, I can plane up
my 95 ltr 9'1" RRD with a 6.7, very consistently, and a 5.5 most of
the time. I think the skeg on that thing is about a 40 cm sweeper, so
pretty verticle. If you're not bumping up the skeg to match your sail
you're probably not getting full potential, but that 6.3 rig should work
pretty well in 15 to 23. You might try moving the mast track around
a little (I'd try forward 1st, but it depends on where your wide point is).

-Craig

.
[/quote]
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jwallace



Joined: 09 May 1998
Posts: 124
Location: SF Bay Area

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steve1 wrote:

Modern sails are much less powerful (but a lot more controllable) than sails from the late 90's and early 00's. My newish 6.3 has about the same pull as a 5.7 from a few years back - however it will remain stable and controllable way past the point where my old 5.7 would be massively over powered. The 7.5 I use is a 3 cam race sail from '99. If I were to replace it, I would need to go to 8.3 to get the same pull in light winds.

Steve


Wow... Good to know about sails. Definitely explains why I feel like my old '98 Ezzy is my "go to" sail and seemingly has such a great upper range.

steve1 wrote:


I stopped launching at His Lorships's several years ago when the drug dealers and pimps moved into the phone box and I was teaching my daughter. Its been cleaned up since but I have adjusted to the better rigging by the docks.

Steve


Same here. Just prefer the docks.

steve1 wrote:


I'm going to the UK and will be back on the water at Berkeley after August 22nd. But there is a great bunch of sailors down at the "carpets" who will be glad to offer advice.

Steve


I have a feeling I've seen you down there as I see several regulars down there. Had a good chat with Domin (sp??) the other day. I used to be the guy with the old white Lexus RX300. Tranny just died after 250K miles. Now (believe it or not) I'm putting all my stuff on top of my dark gray Prius. Have a great trip. I'll look for you in early September upon my return.
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jwallace



Joined: 09 May 1998
Posts: 124
Location: SF Bay Area

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhmark wrote:
If it is old BIC, trim box fins are sometimes hard to come by; on the other hand, good deals often to be had on EBay for this now obsolete box. Definitely give it a try with the bigger fin. As I recall, 6.3 to 7.0 was the most common sail to use at Berkeley, a lot of sailing to be done at those windspeeds. dhmark (learned to sail Berkeley 20+ yrs ago).


Thx! I'll keep a look out on eBay. Windance has some good deals on newer stuff. But $130 still expensive.
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sailingjoe



Joined: 06 Aug 2008
Posts: 1087

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steve1 wrote:


Modern sails are much less powerful (but a lot more controllable) than sails from the late 90's and early 00's.

Steve
I like to think of it as the opposite. Older sails have more power and one needs to rig smaller with them. However, modern cambered sails can be comparable if rigged tight. The power remains low end and can be an aide to planing early or in marginal conditions. Back to the question that was on the title of the thread. Let me include a photo of three Formula fins I own. When I was shopping around for fins to fit my formula board I was told by teaching pro in the sport and his wife when I asked that I definitely needed a 70 cm fin. Otherwise I would not be planing up in the lightest of winds. As you can see from the photo there are differences in material, rake angle, and chord with these fins. Throw into the mix differences in weather, I would not generalize in answering the question.


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sailingjoe



Joined: 06 Aug 2008
Posts: 1087

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me add a photo of two fins. One low aspect, the other high. They differ in overall size, but if you look closely you can see the basic patterns. I bought the Curtis a number of years ago and haven't used it. I really didn't understand what the HAS was all about until I came in possession of the Makani fin.


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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2396

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, both fins are moderate aspect ratios.
If you look at chord to length, they are very similar.
There are much taller to less chord fins out there.
Most fins are more chord, less height.
Formula fins of 5 years ago were higher aspect than state of the art now. The newer fins are wider based, curve like a bent mast, then go down in area at the tip.
Nobody really knows what shape is best, for any disipline so far.
I have some really fast 38 cm fins that are less than 4" at the chord base, but they are somewhat high end oriented and one dimensional.
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sailingjoe



Joined: 06 Aug 2008
Posts: 1087

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm. Now why would the one on the right be marked High ASpect? Were Curtis and Larry Tuttle wrong? Maybe the photographic process has warped the view. I have never seen a fin with a base to tip area ratio so large as the Makani, here's another photo showing some of the fins to which I can compare it. Certainly there are higher and lower aspect fins so I'll accept moderately high or low aspect. Sorry that I can't present a more dramatic comparison, though.


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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2396

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't believe everything you read, unless you like to be decieved.
That front fin, the FinWorks is considered moderately low aspect ratio, state of the art 1990.
A high aspect fin would be something like my Meritex fins from Jocko, 17" tall and just under 4" base. Think of that shape.
Modern Formula fins are moderately high aspect ratios. Anything more would kill the low end, needed for both direction sailing.
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sailingjoe



Joined: 06 Aug 2008
Posts: 1087

PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A picture is worth a thousand words. I'ld love to see one of your high aspect fins. Back in '93 I suspect that the tuttle HAS was just that. Low is pretty common. Here's a fin with which I have had a lot of fun. Ian Boyd was a well known jumper who designed and sold fins under his name for Rainbow. What I see in the original was a modified wave fin. I cut the trailing tip off and use it for what I call freestyle. I used that Finworks quite a bit after I bought it in the early 90's and still have it in Florida. It fits an old Hi-Tech board I brought down there last fall. That is an old picture taken here on Cape Cod.


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