myiW Current Conditions and Forecasts Community Forums Windsurfing Videos Buy and Sell Services
 
Hi guest · myAccount · Log in
 SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   RegisterRegister 
board volume
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    iWindsurf Community Forum Index -> Northwest USA & Canada
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
surfersteve



Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 100

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:37 am    Post subject: board volume Reply with quote

I am a decent intermediate Gorge sailor and have a question about board volume. I sail a 76L wave board in high winds and a 90L Realwinds for up-and-down or lighter winds. Although I can hold onto the 90L in winds up to 30mph gusts, it isn't always that fun in the rodeo. We have enough up and down days that the 76L doesn't really work at the Hatch partially because I weight 185. My question is how much volume change does it take to be noticeable? I have been considering the RW 82L as a board to handle these situations. So how much change in volume does it take to notice any difference? I can only carry 2 boards on my car. Any thoughts?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
willysurf



Joined: 08 Sep 2003
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first thing that I would recommend is to get a new car that is capable of carrying more boards. I am ~195 lbs and I always carry 4 boards at all times:

76L wave for solid nuking conditions (3.7-4.2)
84L fsw for slightly less than above (3.7-4.7)
93L fsw (4.7-5.2)
109 freestyle (5.2+)

With this quiver, I always have the optimal board for the conditions and if it looks at all holey/gusty, I always take a size bigger (my 76L sees the least water time). Every time I sail, I see so many people on sub 80L wave boards when it's holey and they are miserable while I am planing.

Also, remember that board volume is not everything. The shape is just as important. Freestyle and freestyle wave boards work really well in the crappy Gorge wind because they are flatter. Yes, the trade off is a bumpier ride but it keeps you planing through the holes. You should definitely fill in your quiver with an 8XL board but look for an FSW shape as it will have much more range than a pure wave shape. I don't know anything about the Real Wind boards so can't help you there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
robwilliamson



Joined: 20 Sep 2007
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Surfersteve, I weigh the same as you and use a 75L Realwind 90% of the time. When the wind is light and holey I use a 86L FSW that has enough volume to slog if needed. I also have a 108L board that I never use.
I use my 75L board with up to 4.6m sails. for 86L I use 4.6 to 5.5.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
isobras



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
Posts: 439

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

surfersteve wrote:
I am a decent intermediate Gorge sailor and have a question about board volume. I sail a 76L wave board in high winds and a 90L Realwinds for up-and-down or lighter winds. Although I can hold onto the 90L in winds up to 30mph gusts, it isn't always that fun in the rodeo. We have enough up and down days that the 76L doesn't really work at the Hatch partially because I weight 185. My question is how much volume change does it take to be noticeable? I have been considering the RW 82L as a board to handle these situations. So how much change in volume does it take to notice any difference? I can only carry 2 boards on my car. Any thoughts?

I'd love to just respond directly, but a few paragraphs of explanation up front may avert pages of personal BS by turning on the kitchen lights to scatter the roaches. Bear with me, grasshopper; Iíve been and done exactly where and what youíre asking about. To prevent the endless accusations of boasting, ego, narcissism, etc. before they even start, however, I'll first have to explain everything from why I use the word "I" to why I'm discussing my qualifications to offer you my OPINIONS on this subject so near and dear to my heart. If I don't explain all this, people who just can't STAND topical discourse will yet again insist on making this thread about me. When they do that, threads double in length, triple in angst, and quadruple in BS.

First, ego/schmego. I use the word "I" because I can't speak for anyone else, not you, not another contributor, not lurkers. *I* sure as hell don't know what *you* should do, let alone what you should think, so "you should" is not appropriate, and "you must" is WAY out of line. That leaves ďIĒ, so people who donít like or understand it are free to go read something else instead, to take Leeís advice to read for content rather than for excuses to bash someone, or to go to hell. If all theyíre capable of is pissing in the public punchbowl, they should be ashamed and pilloried.

Next, you expressly asked for our thoughts. Offering them is not highjacking the thread, not OT, nor ďabout meĒ; they -- when itís safe to get on with them -- are a direct response to your specific request. Youíre welcome to take or leave them, others are welcome to disagree or add their own opinions, and Iím free to disagree with or add to their opinions. Thatís how public discourse works, except that here we can speak in parallel rather than serially so that no one can filibuster.

Now, here comes the tough part, where I explain relevant aspects of my experience base so you can evaluate the validity and utility of my opinions. This pisses off people who donít understand the necessity of this vital step, but without it youíd have no idea whether Iíve ever set foot on a board <120 liters or on the Columbia River.

Now ferchrissakes can we get on with and stick to the TOPIC for a change? Should we start a pool estimating how soon someone will take an unwarranted personal dump in the punchbowl?

In short ... what Willy said, with some reservations about FSW boards.

I have dozens of boards within your board size range, Steve, and sail just about all of them over the course of a summer .... sometimes 4-5 in one day if conditions suggest or allow. I weigh about 5# more than you. From your description, I'm probably more advanced than you, but after 32 years of this (the last 25+ exactly in your shoes plus being full time, not just weekends) Iíve earned that and should be a LOT more advanced than you. Iím willing, even eager if the good parts are VERY good, to slog/bob/swim on sinkers in the worst holes if the payoff is that 50-75% of the time Iím dialed in to what *I* want to do on the water. Iíve sailed 240-liter boards on a 3.7 in winds averaging 40 mph, and Iíve sailed 65L adequately powered on a 5.2, and the latter is usually WAY more fun in Gorge conditions Ö FOR ME Ö for one simple reason: all I give a damn about on the water is slashing and jumping, in which low volume trumps big in most conditions. I also need a particularly smooth ride for medical reasons, another reason size (and shape) matters to me. All other things being equal, big (and/or wide) bounces more.

Now, FINALLY, come some of the thoughts you asked for.

10 liters change in volume is both obvious and significant in rough water but not on smooth water. Your 90-76 gap is a bit wide, but not bad for a two-board car @ 185#. MUCH more vital than volume, however, is board design. To that end, the wave board megatest at
http://boards.mpora.com/equipment-tests/tested-equipment/wave-test/waveboard-megatest-march-2008.html
is indispensable to you. It discusses board volume and distribution thereof at length, concluding that ďwaveboards are certainly not such good high wind /control boards nowadays (2008+), because [their] shorter rocker flats, less vee, short lengths and greater widths makes them harder to track, more bouncy and pitchy and harder to use generally in strong winds and any chop. Current trends are actually leaving quite a gap in the market, for a longer, narrower, more grippy board to act as a high wind board for non wave specific, intermediate to advanced sailors.Ē In my own 14 words, todayís wave boards are too dang wide for our rough water in high winds. And while I love my very carefully chosen 78L FSW in moderate Gorge conditions, it's too wide/big for sailing hammered in 3.X winds on Gorge chop.

The article cited above emphasized their subjective and objective quest for a new, more meaningful single parameter than volume to estimate a boardís behavior, because the change to wider/stubbier boards has rendered volume a much less useful descriptor. Bottom line: after much effort, they gave up. Volume or length arenít as meaningful as they used to be. A boardís proof is even more dependent on pudding than it ever was; go demo an 82L Fish in the pudding and see whether it enhances your quiver enough to warrant the cost Ö $1,800 new or MUCH less at swap meets or Windance. I really liked the last RW I rode (about 4 years ago), and their website shows it to fall into the Gorge-preferable Traditional category (as described in the URL above) rather than succumbing to the Stubby trend, but it has a great deal of extremely competent competition. In particular, in my extensive experience and studied opinion, there are MANY boards just as good -- including RW Fish -- at every Gorge swap meet.

Do not take this as criticism of RWs; they are excellent Gorge boards. Take it as recognition that there are also another 15+ great shapers out there, and none is the hands-down leader for all conditions or even just Gorge conditions. Too much depends on personal criteria and skills. I could buy (heck, I darned near have bought) just about any pre-2008 80L wave board and love it from 3.7 to 6.2 Gorge conditions, but of the last 10 wider/newer boards Iíve owned and/or ridden, only one turns like I demand a board turn, even it gets shelved when the chop builds, and some beat the crap out me when powered strongly ... exactly like that article said it would. When it gets windy or gnarly, I far prefer keeping board width @ 80L at or under about 55 cm Ö like RW has done. The more Stubby, at 58-60 cm width and 238 cm length, especially with todayís wider tails and flatter rockers, is not my cup of plutonium tea.

So much depends in what your present boards are, not just their volume. Of the 10+ 80L boards -- thatís a great all-around size for our size and my aging forearm tendons -- I bought and kept, every one feels a bit different (the ones I sold felt too different), but all float and turn similarly. However, none is really well suited to maneuvering in 90th percentile chop or wind; I want 65-75 liters then. If your 76 board feels great and does what you want on the biggest and bumpiest days you want to sail, youíre covered at that end. And if the biggest sail you want to use is about a 6.5, your 90 should fill that bill if it does what you want it to do. I try to sail my 6.2/96L combo in the same manner in which I sail my 3.2/65L combo, but in about 80% of my sailing about 80L feels mighty fine Ö 72 if the wind is steady. 76 is certainly close enough for you, especially given your choppy environment. Iíve sailed 96L vastly overpowered on a 3.7, but only on smooth swell and only because the wind shadow was >600 yards wide and the swim twice that if the wind quit. But 90 at the Hatch on anything smaller than a 6.2? No, thanks, ESPECIALLY if itís a modern wide board.

But there are still compounding factors. If you like to cruise out to the swell, luff, and ride it with gravity as your engine, big and wide is fine. If you like sailing powered way up but primarily in straight lines, many wide boards ride well, at least in moderate chop. If, however, you want to sail hammered and slash choppy Hatch swell with that hammer down, wideís a bouncy bitch who usually ignores yer attempts at back-foot heelínítoe slashing in both straps. I suspect the Fish will still do that, but only pudding will tell. I know, OTOH, that many, maybe most, traditional wave boards from 1998-2007 will do that all day, in their sleep, at your slightest whim.

So you have several options, including:
1. Buy something in the lower 80s with a width below roughly 255 mm; the magís cutoff was about 258. The Fish and probably 50 older wave boards fit that criteria. I own a dozen boards like that not because they cost less all together than one newer/wider one, but because, powered to rip in the lulls on rough Gorge terrain, every one of the former provides a better combination of mad slashing, speed, control, and ride comfort than any of the latter that Iíve tried, which deliberately include a few of the best.

2. Go right or left after launching to get out of that damned beat-up rut directly in front of the Hatchery. In this current I suggest left, as in at least down to the actual fish hatchery. This makes the current your friend rather than your enemy.

3. Raid the next swap meet for 2 or 3 80-ish liter older wave boards and an 82L Fish. Heck ... throw in an FSW (with a narrow tail if for high winds). Try Ďem out in the pudding, pick a favorite, and sell the rest. Youíll enjoy the process, learn a lot, and find a new favorite board, all for less money, less hassle, and less risk than buying a new(er) board Ö which you can always do later if you like. Iíve found favorite shapers that way, then tried and/or bought newer boards by them (with varying degrees of success.) One of the very fastest, slashiest, silkiest-riding high-wind boards I own cost me $10 at a swap. Its next-best quivermate cost me another $10. Theyíre yours for $150 each Ö as soon as I can no longer windsurf.

Unless, of course, the shape trend cycle has returned by then to these great shapes, in which case theyíll cost you $500. Better bet: I see these and many comparable boards at every swap meet for double digits.

4. Demos. Theyíre easy when on site on a windy day (as RW does), a PITA when it involves sacrificing shred time to drive to a shop, get a board, find the right wind, get it back to the shop before closing time, etc.

Disclaimer: This tome is too long to proofread. The author Ö i.e., *I*, accept no liability for dangling participles, sharp words, dangerous typos, tense tenses, or unpopular opinions. If its length offends anyone, thatís too damned bad. The OP has a board selection and up to $1,800 at stake, and the rest of you didnít have to read this far. You can always join the class action suit one of our resident lawyers is sure to offer. Wink

Mike \OO/


Last edited by isobras on Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:14 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
willysurf



Joined: 08 Sep 2003
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My eyes are bleeding...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
isobras



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
Posts: 439

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*I* apologize ... and recommend lubricating eye drops.
As I implied, only the OP would (errr, might?) want to wade through that. Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 1200
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, but, I ride the same board from 3.7 to 5.5. It was designed
to accommodate the sail range and by golly it works. I also weigh about
185 lbs. The board is custom, glass, about 80 ltrs, and 8'2", with a fish
outline, onshore wave rocker and rails, a fair amount of vee,
and a squash tail. This board is an old soldier now (with 6 or 7
years on it), but it's so handy as a one size fits all Gorge board,
it's been really hard for me to give it up. I do tend to carry a
bigger (maybe 95 ltr) board, for really light 5.5 and 6.7.

I guess what I'm saying is the planform has at least as much to do with
how small/large of a board you can ride in different conditions.

And now to answer the OP's question. I can feel a difference between
my 70 ltr Hi-Tech, and my 80 Ltr custom ( made by Cascade), but not
much difference between my 80 Ltr custom, and my Naish wave board
at 84 ltrs. Planform notwithstanding.

-Craig

willysurf wrote:
The first thing that I would recommend is to get a new car that is capable of carrying more boards. I am ~195 lbs and I always carry 4 boards at all times:

76L wave for solid nuking conditions (3.7-4.2)
84L fsw for slightly less than above (3.7-4.7)
93L fsw (4.7-5.2)
109 freestyle (5.2+)

With this quiver, I always have the optimal board for the conditions and if it looks at all holey/gusty, I always take a size bigger (my 76L sees the least water time). Every time I sail, I see so many people on sub 80L wave boards when it's holey and they are miserable while I am planing.

Also, remember that board volume is not everything. The shape is just as important. Freestyle and freestyle wave boards work really well in the crappy Gorge wind because they are flatter. Yes, the trade off is a bumpier ride but it keeps you planing through the holes. You should definitely fill in your quiver with an 8XL board but look for an FSW shape as it will have much more range than a pure wave shape. I don't know anything about the Real Wind boards so can't help you there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2312

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All volume quotations are just estimates from someone.
Width, outline, rocker, tail rocker, thickness has lots do do with it, mixing up the feel of just "volume".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
brettn



Joined: 22 Nov 2000
Posts: 64

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willysurf and I independently almost arrived at the exact same board quiver.

76 Starboard Acid pure wave. Floats the 120-pound wife nicely.

82 Quatro twin wave. Really has to be nukin. Or goodnuf surf that I'll put up with it sinking every chance it gets. Wears me out fast.

94 FSW. Way more fun to schlog than 82, and schlogs way less. Can sail it hours longer. Bumpier ride. Goes faster, jumps higher.

109 JP Freestyle. A little bulky but with a 13-inch fin is good skunk insurance. Fiddling with Vulcans on it. Learned forwards on it in 16 knots, may upgrade to late model 100ish liter freestyle light 'pro' construction to be more nimble. It's that last 9 liters that plane me though. Hard to give that up.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RocRobster



Joined: 22 May 2002
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the actual link to the article from iso: http://boards.mpora.com/equipment-tests/tested-equipment/wave-test/waveboard-megatest-march-2008.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    iWindsurf Community Forum Index -> Northwest USA & Canada All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum

myiW | Weather | Community | Membership | Support | Log in
like us on facebook
© Copyright 1999-2007 WeatherFlow, Inc Contact Us Ad Marketplace

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group