Check before gype!

[zirtaeb]

And Jim, I know YOU need rules, because without rules, it would be mayhem out there for people without common sense.

[zirtaeb]

Sounds like pretty strong words, doesn't it?
But it's all true. I worked at both CalSailing AND CalAdventures, and plenty of beginners complain about this guy who insists on sailing too close to other sailors, and he's always pushing the "right of way" and chicken matches.
Yes, he's a big guy, so he might win the majority of collisions. In truth, nobody wins the collisions or the near misses, it's just plain bad for windsurfing and sport in general.
You guys know who the guys are who push the rules. In the racing crowd, there are the nice guys, like S3, VY, ML, and there are the questionable collision causers, like DL (Lester, not me), my bud Vlad, and a few others who always seem to be in collision mode with varying different other sailors.

[johnl]

Zirtaeb, it sounds like you have some issues here. People have pointed out the LAWS that govern the water and you either refuse to read them for yourself or can't. But let me ask you this. Do you REALLY think that in the United States where we have laws that tell you where you can even legally walk across a street do you not think there aren't laws that govern all lakes, rivers, and bays? If you don't you must be on something really good.....

But let me tell two stories.....

Story one. We have two windsurfers who don't know or won't follow the ROW. Two guys approaching each other. One on Starboard, one on Port. As they get close, they realize they are going to hit each other. So the starboard guy heads up higher, unfortunately so does the port. So now they realize that they are still going to hit each other so they each bear off. Well this goes on and on till both are frustrated and end up falling in the water to avoid a collision. Once in the water, the arguement starts and ends with both yelling at each other (or worse) and putting a damper on their day.

Story two. We have two windsurfers who BOTH know the ROW. Same scenario. The one on Starboard knows he is the STAND ON VESSEL (read this, STAND on, not right of way) and he holds his course. The port windsurfer decides to go upwind OR downwind of the other guy. They pass each other safely with plenty of space and wave, both having a great day of being on the water. Why? Because there was no complication, or any near accident, just two boaters out sharing the water safely.

Now which scenario would you rather be in????

[boggsman1]

[windoggie]

Why can't we all get along?
Rodney King

[NickB]

I have to say I'm baffled by the take of some of our more seasoned sailors here, sort of implying that heading upwind is malicious and should be dealt with as such.

Pinching upwind means heading upwind at a maximum angle (hence lower board speed, making it unlikely that you'll overtake an upwind sailor "from behind"). I believe it's a necessary evil for most of us, unless you're in a venue helped by currents (tides/rivers).

As far as I know, nobody pinches upwind for fun. We pinch upwind so we can have more fun later, or as a payback for the fun we just had on that smoking' broad reach, or to avoid obstacles or walk of shames.

When we head or pinch upwind, a same-tack upwind sailor in our normal field of vision is usually not an issue. The sailor most susceptible to be on our collision course is the one upwind but behind us. Consider we're both on a starboard tack and I'm the downwind sailor and my shoulders are facing forward, I'd have to crank my neck 90-180 degrees to the right to have any idea someone crept up there. That is definitely a blind spot as john explained, and me not seeing you doesn't mean I'm trying to impair on your fun, so please don't ram your fiberglass tanker into my ankles just to prove a point, that'd make YOU the total dick.

In my flat/chop light wind venue, I'm faced with 95% kites on the inside and sailboats on the outside, most of them pinch upwind better and faster than I do. It turns out I have a window in my sail that lets me see through it, and I'm pretty sure I'm expected to use it. I do. And to avoid any unpleasant surprises, I complement that with frequent glances/peeks around my mast for any potential blind spot in front of my window, and quick sheet outs and peeks for any potential blind spots behind my window. That always allows me to detect a faster vessel incoming from downwind and do whatever I have to do to get out of a collision path with him. Usually, it means either:
- I pinch upwind a little more myself, hence slowing down (while looking forward to the benefit of having gained some distance upwind), and letting the faster sailor overtake me from downwind without having to change his course/speed/goal
or
- We're still far apart from each other, I'm in a playful mood or already upwind from where I need to be, I reckon I have time and skills to reach broader and increase my speed to overtake the downwind sailor without risk of collision
or
- I'm in an even more playful mood and decide to blast downwind and completely avoid his path, crossing behind him.

If the distance between the downwind sailor and myself is too small for any of the options above, it usually means I didn't do my homework and fulfill my obligations of staying aware of my downwind context, and I sure as hell am not going to expect the other sailor to have noticed me (in his real blind spot) or to renounce his right of way. I'll be predictable and polite, sounds like a great opportunity for a short-board tack, and will expect the same when the situation is reversed.

[bluelightwave]

If you keep reading the official rules, you get to rule 13. It seems that the overtaking sailing vessel has the burden of responsiblility whether upwind or downwind.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=Rule13

RULE 13: OVERTAKING

(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules [of Part B, Sections I and II / 4 through 18], any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.

(b) A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with a another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither of her sidelights.

(c) When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she is overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly.

(d) Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.

For completeness here is the basic rule 12 about *approaching* sailing vessels. Remember that rule 13 overrides leeward/windward considerations when overtaking:

RULE 11: APPLICATION RULE 12 - SAILING VESSELS

Rule 11

Rules in this section apply to vessels in sight of one another.

Rule 12

(a) When two sailing vessels are approaching one another, so as to involve risk of collision, one of them shall keep out of the way of the other as follows:

when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel which has the wind on the port side shall keep out of the way of the other;
when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;
if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the other vessel has the wind on the port or on the starboard side, she shall keep out of the way of the other.

(b) For the purposes of this Rule the windward side shall be deemed to be the side opposite that on which the mainsail is carried or, in the case of a square-rigged vessel, the side opposite to that on which the largest fore-and-aft sail is carried.

[mac]

Thanks for the posting bluelight. As a practical matter, when windsurfing it is the upwind vessel that usually has the power and speed to overtake. (There can be a different situation in racing, where boats are not yet started, and are usually not at full speed. Then there can be a tactical advantage in claiming luffing rights at the start or a mark. But such luffing is not the source of debate on this thread.) So in most situations the upwind vessel is overtaking and has the responsibility to avoid. Rule 12 is, of course, the starboard rule, and it is not a racing rule.

I think most of us understand that new sailors (kayakers, SUPers. etc) have so much information coming at them that they cannot understand much of it. But it is incumbent on us to teach them, and not insist on some whacky idea of "common sense", or first on a wave ideas.

[zirtaeb]

JohnL...
We know you are an ex law enforcement officer, and as such, you need rules and regulartions to abide by, abide by, and enforce.
In this case, we are not talking about abandoning all rules just to apply COMMON SENSE! COMMON SENSE says to AVOID all accidents, or causing a scenario which creates an accident. You CAN agree with this, right?
Well, let's apply your rules. Downwind boat is to be avoided, yes. But if downwind boat sails into the blind spot of upwind, and WE ARE LOOKING UPWIND and FORWARD when we windsurf, the COMMON SENSE rule is to avoid THAT SITUATION.
YES, upwind sailor needs to look around to clear ahead and behind.
YES, downwind sailor needs to avoid sailing into the blindspot of upwind sailor.
Like when you drive your van, how would you like it if we sneak behind your van as you are backing out of your parking spot? How would you like it if we stay in your blindspot, 3/4 behind your van, while we're driving on the roads?
It's EASY to avoid sailing into a sailors blindspot, just like I can stay away from the back of your van when you're backing up. What you are saying is akin to...... YOU are responsible for backing into me if I sneak behind your van when you are trying to back up!

[NickB]

You don't make sense to me:

1) You don't need to be into law enforcement to need rules to abide by. Those rules are here to protect all of us. Your belittling attacks on John and mac don't help your point.

2) Your "WE ARE LOOKING UPWIND and FORWARD when we windsurf" is inadequate most of the time, it still leaves a huge blind spot behind you head while you're pinching upwind, and that's where danger lies. Just like on the slopes, you might not like the way I ski and it might impact your planned trajectory, but if you're uphill you have to avoid me, simple as that.

Now look at the the picture below, showing the frightening near-collison at 1:43 in this frightening video. Shown in slow motion at the end of the video. This one could very well have been fatal. Both sailors did their best and you can see the upwind sailor being diligent with his frequent downwind checks, but still, who do you think had the best chance at spotting the other guy? does it seem to you that the downwind sailor ever had a chance to know of this imminent danger, or more chance than the upwind sailor?

I don't think anyone's newfound version of common sense can be a substitute to established multi-vessels navigational rules, and suggesting otherwise on such a forum is irresponsible.