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Who is fighting all of these regulations?
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 3958

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fueser, You been reading Marx? This is not a zero sum game!

Steve Jobs and Bill Gates were job creators who started in their garages with no capital. The guy in Texas who drilled the 1st oilwell there created jobs. Most people don't create jobs. Government doesn't create jobs, it just sucks capital away from those who do create jobs. You guys like to think that wealthy folks lie in their beds all days with piles of money and mirrored ceilings.

My 1st job out of college, I earned $1500 per month. I scrimpped and saved until I had a few thousand dollars to invest in the business. I then went on to create a dozen jobs. Most people just work and consume. I don't blame them. With guys running our country like Obama, why would anyone want to work to hard?

BTW, if anyone here thinks I like what G Bush did, you are wrong. However, I'm not sure Romney will follow either O or Bush once in office. I think we just keep changing them until we get a good one.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2583

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:

Steve Jobs and Bill Gates were job creators who started in their garages with no capital.

Eventually, Jobs and Gates had money, visionary products, AND customers for their products.

It was the customer demand for products that created growth and jobs.

Don't confuse rich guys with job creators. Many people have plenty of money but don't create jobs. Those people or those corporations will not add jobs unless the employees can make money for them... i.e., make products that sell profitably.

Today, corporations have more money than they've ever had -- they're sinfully wealthy, but they're not creating jobs. Throwing more money at them will not create jobs, but it WILL take money away from the middle class that would otherwise buy products, create product demand, and create jobs.

BTW...... you just said that Jobs and Gates created jobs with no money. ("...started in their garages with no capital.")

So, connect the money dots with the job dots in your argument.

They don't connect.
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feuser



Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1393

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
Fueser, You been reading Marx? This is not a zero sum game!

Steve Jobs and Bill Gates were job creators who started in their garages with no capital. The guy in Texas who drilled the 1st oilwell there created jobs. Most people don't create jobs. Government doesn't create jobs, it just sucks capital away from those who do create jobs. You guys like to think that wealthy folks lie in their beds all days with piles of money and mirrored ceilings. ...


Yes, I've read Marx. Yet, I am a capitalist and entrepreneur and I would call myself a "jobs creator" if I was a bit more full of myself.

Try to comprehend what Hanauer said in the clip:

The 500 wealthiest people didn't amass their wealth, build and maintain their businesses by selling their product to the other 499 wealthiest out there.

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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1922

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back on the subject post. Who's fighting these regulations? As it turns out in the area of NM that I described earlier...the current governor and the industry representatives. They feel they cannot compete with other suppliers due to their additional costs in this sensitive area.

http://www.daily-times.com/four_corners-news/ci_20589117/sanchez-criticizes-regulations-that-affect-oil-and-gas

I sympathize with their plight. This drilling activity will provide a huge economic boost to this area. More jobs, taxes etc. But, at what cost? Apparently, it has been profitable to develop this resource in the past with the current regulations. Why change this? The easy answer is...it will be MORE profitable if we can relax the regulations.

I am not arguing that every regulation should be maintained. I have enough experience designing in a regulatory environment to know some regs develop a life of their own to the point they don't make sense. But, the high gas prices and recession are providing an opportunity for industry to attempt widespread rollbacks in these regulations.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5694

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't R. Emanuel generally suggest that every crisis represents an opportunity? I'm thinking that some industry folks out there got the message.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1922

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
Didn't R. Emanuel generally suggest that every crisis represents an opportunity? I'm thinking that some industry folks out there got the message.


Absolutely. This goes both ways, of course.

Part of the problem with regulations, and the enforcement, is that the political pendulum swings so regularily. The nature of the regulatory environment is that the regulators get overly zealous, followed by periods of reaction by the industry and their political allies and a period of relaxation of enforcement and on and on.

I do believe that most of us do wish to see a balance.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1442

PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

feuser said:
Quote:
Job creators is, in fact, a neologism that masquerades the fact that the creation of jobs depends on a number of factors:
1. Products (inventors, entrepreneurs)
2. Consumers (markets)
3. Lenders (capital)


I don't disagree as I said before, but the three above produce NOTHING, and don't create any jobs unless you add #4.

4. The guy(s) that do the market research, buy the idea/concept, borrow the money and PRODUCE, MARKET AND SELL THE PRODUCT OR SERVICE. These are the guy(s) that take the risk, hire the people to do all of the above in bold print and hopefully make money, and if they are successful, they then expand and add more jobs or more products. Many of these don't need to borrow money since they have the capital from previous successes. These are the job creators even though pueno thinks it's just a "GOP talking point".
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2583

PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
These are the job creators even though pueno thinks it's just a "GOP talking point".

It is absolutely a GOP talking point, the modern version of Reagan's "trickle down" theory -- which was just BS from the 1% of that era.

To say "Give us money and we'll hire" is nonsense, because they don't have a reason to hire -- unless they DO have a reason to hire, like "people are buying my products, so I need more staff to produce."

The middle class needs sufficient income to buy products (presumably made in USA) so the so-called "job creators" can create jobs. Without consumers, the "job creating" wealthy will simply become more wealthy, and that is precisely what has happened for the last 25 years as the Mitt Romneys have sent jobs to China.
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mat-ty



Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 1059

PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats right, those Mitt Romneys, like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Jeff Immelt, and anyone else who wants to make a profit.
Maybe they are escaping the suffocating taxes , regulations, and unions that make doing business in America difficult.
The other problem is we live in a disposable world, everybody wants cheap, no one cares about quality anymore. You no longer repair tvs or most electronics, you just throw them out and buy a new one. You buy a shirt at Kohls for twenty bucks, wash it once and give it to your kid if it survives the first washing.
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 1928
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mat-ty wrote:
Thats right, those Mitt Romneys, like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Jeff Immelt, and anyone else who wants to make a profit.
Maybe they are escaping the suffocating taxes , regulations, and unions that make doing business in America difficult.
The other problem is we live in a disposable world, everybody wants cheap, no one cares about quality anymore. You no longer repair tvs or most electronics, you just throw them out and buy a new one. You buy a shirt at Kohls for twenty bucks, wash it once and give it to your kid if it survives the first washing.


Making profit is not directly related to creating jobs. For example, profits are made all the time by hedging and arbitrage. Nobody is adding a job by simply by being a market maker, nor is anyone adding a job by flipping currency overnight.

Profit-making comes after creating at least one job -perhaps just one's own- within a field where some labor and skill bears fruit in a transaction with a value sufficient for someone to declare it profitable. To say profits create jobs puts the cart before the horse.

As to the remainder of your post, Matt, I agree completely. Very good point.

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