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What's next best harness similar to DaKine XTSeat?
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wooot



Joined: 05 Oct 2002
Posts: 199

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So.... if i read 3 pages of drivel from self-appointed experts about stretching and such I will learn what the next best harness to the XT seat is??

No wonder this forum is dead.
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braden



Joined: 12 Jun 1987
Posts: 65
Location: Providence RI

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I'm one of the lurkers that isobars is talking about. I confess to finding the exercise field complex and confusing. I'm in the mental health field and often recommend exercise for mood and cognitive benefits. But I really don't know whether I should be recommending strength training or aerobics (not that it matters, most people are willing either to go walking, or to do nothing).
I did download isobars' recommended book, body by science, and have now been doing a strength routine once a week plus a high intensity session on a stepper. It is kind of weird when I'm at a small gym and I'm the only person breathing heavily. I'm not ready to say it works better, but it doesn't work worse and takes less time. One big benefit: doing leg presses has helped my bad knees far more than the stationary bike ever did.
So I'm not ready to agree with isobars entirely, but I do think I have gained benefit by reading his posts.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14238

PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Last edited by isobars on Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14238

PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wooot wrote:
So.... if i read 3 pages of drivel from self-appointed experts about stretching and such


Maybe if you read, or at least lifted, some of these books while -- or instead of -- eating you'd benefit in several ways, Marty.

think ... think ... think ... Oh, what the hell ... SEND. Wink
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14238

PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

braden wrote:
1. the exercise field complex and confusing.

2. exercise for mood and cognitive benefits.

3. I really don't know whether I should be recommending strength training or aerobics (not that it matters, most people are willing either to go walking, or to do nothing).

4. I did download isobars' recommended book, body by science, and have now been doing a strength routine once a week plus a high intensity session

5. on a stepper.

6. It is kind of weird when I'm at a small gym and I'm the only person breathing heavily.

7. I'm not ready to say it works better, but it doesn't work worse and takes less time.

8. One big benefit: doing leg presses has helped my bad knees far more than the stationary bike ever did.

9. I'm not ready to agree with isobars entirely

10. I do think I have gained benefit by reading his posts.


1. I’d add overwhelming. That’s one reason I’m trying out these techniques: whether it’s the stock market, prescription medication, or an exercise program, it’s smart to try the option offering the highest all-factors ratio of upside to downside.

2. That’s apparently the best benefit of walking; its downside is injury. But if, of course, walking feels like sprinting to some people, that’s a start.

3. “Recommend”, certainly, IMO and that of the literature. The real challenge is motivating them, and given the astounding immediate and long-term mental and physical benefits of exercise, that’s sad.

4. I hope McGuff’s science is as valid as it is detailed; it’s certainly persuasive to me. Without its depth, I doubt I’d have accepted the shallower but broader books on the same topic. I’m really liking this so far!

5. Get some variety. Some books/trainers claim steppers cause chronic hip and back problems over a decade or two. Some days I’ll hop on a machine and sprint flat out until wiped out, go do something less strenuous until I can breathe comfortably again, hop on a different kind of machine, sprint, go do something less strenuous, change the hill or resistance setting on some machine and sprint again, etc., until I’ve done 5-6 such sprint-rest cycles. This surprises the body, wastes no time standing around while getting your breath back, and gets you out of the gym quicker. It looks silly to all those poor schmucks laboriously plodding along on their torture machines while I’ve done 10-12 different exercises for both fitness and routine body maintenance. With a variety of fast music on your iPod, the sprints shouldn’t be boring; I had one huge commercial 300-pound elliptical machine hopping across the floor while sprinting up a modest incline @ 120 RPM.

6. Out of ~100 cardio and strength machines on our main floor, only 1 or 2 patrons are breathing as hard as I am, but I’ve done -- and I now believe achieved more at lower risk -- in 8 minutes of actual lifting + a few sprints than virtually every one of them achieve in hours. I hate to think of my misguided 4-6 continuous HOURS 2-3 days a week at almost that pace in previous winters. No wonder it hurt and wore me out.

7. Hang in there. My charts and body tell me it’s helping me much more so far.

8. Much, maybe most, knee pain is due to thigh muscle strength imbalance. Presses really help that. Of course, some cycling helps synovial lubrication, too.

9. I don’t agree with myself yet -- not by a long shot -- because I’m still reading, experimenting, and charting progress and because what I’ve typed here isn’t 0.1% of what I’ve read. But I think I’m on a valid track.

10. Then it’s a win/win for you and me, and probably a loss for most people unwilling to at least check it out.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3573
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe wrote:
isobars wrote:
mrgybe wrote:
1. stressing muscles to failure should be a routine feature of resistance training ...
2. only as a part of a much broader conditioning program.

1. Yup ... but at least in my gym, I don't see even ONE of its hundreds of patrons lifting to failure. They all rip off X reps and walk away.


I don't disagree............many people in gyms use improper form and poor training techniques.........their lack of knowledge doesn't invalidate long established proper conditioning methods.

isobars wrote:
How many Olympic gold medalists, NBL champions, Iron Man top contenders, and world champ bodybullders have you guys turned out?


I have never turned a champion of any sort in the field of athletics. However, I played squash to a high level for many years and, in the early 80s played an exhibition match against the reigning world champion, Jahangir Khan........he was world champion for 6 years and is regarded as probably the finest player of all time. For those who are not familiar with squash, at a high level it requires a level of conditioning that exceeds most other sports.........he was regarded as one of the fittest men in the world at the time. After the match we chatted about his training regimen........five days a week, one to two hours running followed by swimming plus an hour of "shadow squash" (simulated game on court alone with a coach shouting instructions).....and then he would play a game against an opponent. Day six, squash only........day seven, rest. Guess where I got my 6 day a week model from?................and yes, I recommend stretching before and after a match or any other strenuous activity.........particularly for the elderly! If only Jahangir had known about the 15 minute a week routine he could have learned how to crochet in his newly found spare time!



P.S. I lost!!

Squash is a grueling workout. One of my Squaw buddies who laps KT -22 100 days a year plays squash all summer to make sure he's ready for winter. ISO, I dont road ride to prep for windsurfing, I road ride to prep for road riding. One is aerobic, one is anaerobic. Mafetone argues that highly anaerobic people often run into health issues because of the lack of aerobic strength. Sprinters, and high output atheletes dont recover well and have an over active adrenal, that is Mafetones primary theory. Insomnia, diabetes, and other health ailments are common with high anaerobic outputs.
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2673

PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
Pre-game stretching diminishes plyometric (e.g., jumping, sprinting, throwing ... any quick, powerful movements) performance quite dramatically, and may increase injury rates.


It's interesting that Usain Bolt stretches before a race........if anyone could catch him they could tell him that it's slowing him down!! The older I get, the more I stretch...........lengthens the muscles and releases lubricants to the joints. I know there are differing views on the value of stretching, but it's my experience that, over time, short, tight muscles and poorly lubricated joints lead to discomfort and injuries.

I agree that the muscles should be warmed first but I disagree that post activity stretching serves no purpose........I've always understood that post activity cool down and stretching removes the lactic acid build up........if I don't stretch after a high energy activity I may cramp up later or be sore the next day. Again, whatever works for you.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14238

PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I neither know or care whether stretching "works" for me, because:
• I don't ever get sore muscles short of traumatic injury.
• Lactic acid dissipates in minutes on its own.
• For bodies trained to use it, lactic acid is a great fuel.
• Whether it works for me (i.e., my anecdotal experience) is of no use to anyone else. I'm spouting very extensive research data applicable to the active population at large ... the same way a physician is required to treat patients (aka evidence-based medicine).
• Research shows pre-contest static stretching reduces plyometric (aka stretch reflex) performance by 2-25%.

The literature says Bolt and his peers do dynamic, not static, stretching.
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wooot



Joined: 05 Oct 2002
Posts: 199

PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike, really??

You respond by calling me stupid and fat??

There is a lot you don't know about me... I have B.S. in Biology, and a degree in Psychology along with roughly 1000 hours of volunteer experiend in P.T. so I know a little... Though I design about $30 million in residential and commercial buildings every year now.. so I am sure my info is a little dated at this point.

Used to be able to run 10.9 100 meters and bench 345 ( back when I weighed 165... before I got fat) Also used to pull a mean fronside air out of a 12 ft. half-pipe... cant do that anymore either.

I also have other interests besides windsurfing. I longboard, am interested in Astronomy, Slot-cars, Cabinet making and wood working... AND cooking... thats how I got fat. ( don't mind a good Micro-brew either)

What about you Mike??

It appears that your reason for being is soley Windurfing, That. and being the Self appointed "Grand-Poopa" of the I windsurf forums.
I have watched the slow degradation (through your posts) of what used to be a cool guy. Now your nothing but a hollow "know it all", ready to pounce on ANYTHING that anyone else says with you "God like" intellect and knowledge.
Do you ever actually read what you post and think "how will this appear to those who are reading it?" Do you every actually read what others post, and try to respond in a thoughtfull manner to what they ask without breaking into the "i throw 12 foot walls of water in my six-G-turns (that would buckle the knees of a mere mortal other than the "Great Isobars)... right before you go into your 25 ft. launch (with 6 second hang time)??

A little humillity would do you some good.

Truth be told. those 12 ft walls of spray aren't nearly that tall, and they come when you you do you Pattended "stall slash" top turn. I also hate to break it to ya' but... your jumps are typically about 4-6 feet... not 20.
The reason you are on a larger sail than the rest of us is because you are inefficiant and are ofton on a board which is to small for the condions..... which also contributes to your "more than normal amount of slog-time".

You also aren't doing 2 or 3 for 4 4hour sessions a day.
Honestly, I have never seen ANYONE spend more time standing on the beach bitching about how gusty it is, when the rest of us think it's "pretty damn clean today". Take out a little bigger board with a little less rocker maybe?

Me. I sail for fun. After 2 ACL surgerys I don't jump much. I think I can turn and slash with the best of them... but I don't brag about it, and I'm sure my "self vision" may be be more than the reality.

What I am saying has been said "oh-so-many-times", but it always seams to roll off the back of one with an EGO that exceeds the great Mike Tyson.

I am saying this as your friend, Mike.
It is time for a little reality check.
Time to get a life.
Time to become something more than the "Great ISOBARS"
Time to learn to respect the opinions of others, and show a little humillity in yours.
For Gods sake man!

I konw the real Mike is out there... cool, fun to have around Mike.
Maybe we will see him agian.
I hope so.

Love ya man.
Marty
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14238

PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boggsman1 wrote:
One is aerobic, one is anaerobic. Mafetone argues that highly anaerobic people often run into health issues because of the lack of aerobic strength. Sprinters, and high output atheletes dont recover well and have an over active adrenal, that is Mafetones primary theory. Insomnia, diabetes, and other health ailments are common with high anaerobic outputs.


This article goes a long ways towards reconciling the apparent (because they agree more than disagree) Maffetone/McGuff paradox. See
"McGuff’s Brief Muscular Effort and Maffetone’s Slow Aerobics, Never the Twain Shall Meet?" at
http://tinyurl.com/48lmtv5 .

You'll see how close they really are, and how combining interval training with Superslow strength training may be better than either one for most applications and people.

Excerpts (and I haven't even followed the extensive link trail yet):

• New thinking on lactic acid may recast Dr. Maffetone’s avoidance of anaerobic exercise as a phobia.

• For years, we’ve been told that lactic acid is a waste product that burns and shuts down muscles. It’s something athletes and fitness exercisers are urged to avoid. You’re told to work out just below your lactate threshold, where lactic acid begins to accumulate. That, it seems, is mostly wrong.

[That's why I read so dang many books and research abstracts: no one guru has it all right, applications and individuals differ, and things change.]

• UC Berkley integrative biology professor George A. Brooks, who has been studying lactic acid since doing his doctoral dissertation on the subject in the ‘70s. Brooks says the idea that lactic acid is bad and to be avoided “was one of the classic mistakes in the history of science.”

He continues: “The understanding now is that muscle cells convert glucose to lactic acid,” Brooks explains. “The lactic acid is taken up and used as a fuel by mitochondria, the energy factories in muscle cells. Mitochondria even have a special transporter protein to move the substance into them. The world’s best athletes stay competitive by interval training. The intense exercise generates big lactate loads, and the body adapts by building up mitochondria to clear lactic acid quickly. If you use it up [as an energy source], it doesn’t accumulate.”

Aerobic metabolism and anaerobic metabolism, in fact, operate side by side in the mitochondria. The heart, slow-twitch muscle fibers, and breathing muscles actually prefer lactate as a fuel during exercise. In short, lactic acid is a significant energy source, actually a good thing.

• Endurance athletes, freed of anaerobic-phobia, might want to consider doing the Big-5 workout and intervals on alternate weeks. That would help to preserve/build the primary biomarkers, muscle mass and strength, and take advantage of the proven benefits of interval training, without the risk of overtraining.

• Reader Response From Dr. Phil Maffetone:
"My approach has never been to avoid anaerobic training. In fact, I recommend it often and do it myself. My recommendation is to first develop a very good aerobic system, then add anaerobic/power workouts as time, energy and stress levels permit. The high cortisol associated with anaerobic training, like any stress, can interfere with aerobic development. Some athletes (mainly those in endurance sports), can perform their best without any anaerobic training [until, of course, they reach a hill or are getting passed by the guy who also does interval training], and instead, rely on competition for sufficient anaerobic work. Each athlete must assess his or her needs and determine how best to balance aerobic and anaerobic training"

These drops in the bucket are why I wish you guys would stop nit-picking this stuff or dismissing it altogether rather than letting readers read more details and make up their own minds. I don't have the time or motivation to type -- and no one would read -- the hundreds of very condensed pages it would require to begin to explain the details, resolve apparent contradictions, and/or cite research abstracts necessary to CONVINCE anyone of this; that's not my goal here, or in AGW, or in politics. My goal is to expose and point people to extensively researched ideas and facts in case they want to make more informed choices based on a wider variety of well-supported facts and professional opinions.

I also figure that anyone unwilling to do that extra reading probably falls into one of at least 7 camps:
1. Perfectly happy with their status quo, for better or worse.
2. Want to improve but not badly enough to do the necessary homework.
3. Dogmatic.
4. Simply unaware there are alternatives.
5. Not big on reading, period.
6. Too busy windsurfing to give a $#!+.
7. Has 17 irons in the fire already (just the camp who might benefit the most from these very efficient programs)
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