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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1945

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stevenbard said:

Quote:
Rationing is the only outcome from adding 50 million people to the system, while lowering dotors pay, and losing doctors.


I will participate in an in depth discussion on the new Health Care plan and how it may effect health care delivery, costs and providers, but not unless we can agree on one goal.

That every citizen of the United States should have access to basic health care.

We can debate what should be included and how it's paid for. But, if we start out with believing it is currently O.K. to have 50 million people NOT in the system, this is a waste of time. BTW, there are not 50 million people without care right now, just no organized method to pay for their care!

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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1945

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, one other thing.

Your source on doctor's bailing out. This is because of conditions that occured during Bushes term. To move forward on a discussion it is necessary to understand that this legislation is attempting to fix a system screwed up by many before.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14153

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
If you would like to start a new topic that can begin with showing that physicians are bailing out of medicine in large numbers because of the HC plan with some real data, I would love to see it.


Just Google doctors leaving Medicare. The first eleventy hundred hits offer sources from whackoblogs to JAMA; take your pick, or add some medical association acronyms to your search field and narrow your choices down.

I'll say it again: If someone actually wants information, they will Google it themselves, select sources they trust, verify those sources and their conclusions with respected independent fact verification sources, and form what should be a valid conclusion ... if there is one. If someone does not want to hear the truth, they will demand a URL so they can claim it's biased. The exception is some factoid too new or too obscure to find easily, where one solid source can suffice; this issue doesn’t meet that criterion.

I had to slash my way through hundreds of rumors, vaunted experts' opinions, poor studies, conflicting studies, medical journal abstracts and selected entire studies, 15 authoritative books on cancer, support groups full of everything from dudes with cancer to oncologists to NIH experts who mathematically model cancer for a living, etc. to choose my multiple cancer treatments. My conclusions and support thereof, presented in doctorspeak so they could wade through it efficiently, unanimously reversed not only the unanimous treatment recommendation conclusions of my entire oncology team in my case(s), but changed some of their broader paradigms for all their patients. One seldom believes only one source, especially if that source has been demonized and/or doesn't provide the desired answer.

So we have to ask ourselves, "How much effort is a VALID answer worth to me on any given issue?" I don't need that level of proof (hundreds of hours on just one life-changing treatment, in my case) to conclude that doctors and insurers will flee Ocare in very significant numbers.
• Both flights make the news every week if one reads something besides left wing rags. Even some left wing rags and news agencies admit it.
• My own local physicians in large numbers have been rejecting new Medicare (and with it, all government insurance) patients -- some are already dropping even existing patients -- for more than a year now, and Ocare hasn’t even hit the fan yet. When I had to pay thousands of dollars in cash a year ago for medical treatment from the best qualified local physician, I asked him why he refuses all government insurance: “The obvious. I refuse to work for peanuts, let alone at a net loss, and it will get much worse.”
• Look at the invoices we get after a medical consult. All four of my government insurers combined pay my providers roughly 20% of their billed amounts. The eight bucks my orthopod got for my last visit was less than Meg Whitman’s illegal alien housekeeper gets paid, and Nicky doesn’t have to pay a staff, buy X-ray machines, or buy malpractice insurance.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14153

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
every citizen of the United States should have access to basic health care.


They already do.

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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1945

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isobars

Your experiences with the medical care and delivery experience are a result of conditions that occured long before Obama. Your descriptions are dead on with the problems that even those with insurance face.

Now, consider that those insured folks without group plans can have insurance rates go up to unaffordable levels or get cancelled after having paid six fugures for insurance with the same plan in past years when they present with a costly claim.

This is not Obama care. This was Reagon,Bush,Clinton,Bush care!

Insurance reform is necessary. Medicare is going down! IMO, the free market cannot fix this!

At least you and I seem to agree that health care should be available. I am not sure with Stevenbard - thus my comment.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14153

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
1. Your source on doctor's bailing out. This is because of conditions that occured during Bushes term.

2. this legislation is attempting to fix a system screwed up by many before.


1. Yep ... and even before that. But just like the economy, how do the Democrats justify making it MUCH worse?

2. I flat do not believe that. Barack Obama, Barney Frank, and several other administration leaders are on full-length, in-context, video public records stating that their objective is single(tax)-payer, government-run, universal health care. That has been proven to fail miserably in Great Britain, Canada, Cuba, Washington state, Tennessee, and many other states and nations. Jack Welch is on the TV ripping Ocare apart yet again as I type.

The evidence is overwhelming that this EXTREME left administration's primary, maybe sole, goal is a nation of sheep whose every blade of grass, every dump, every breath, and especially every shearing is managed by those who know best: "We're the government, and we're here to show you how to live your life." Witness its countless already-voiced and/or fait accompli targets of government control, including the auto industry, banking, mortgages, health care, health care insurance, school loans, school lunches, YOUR lunch, any company or CEO making "too much money", TR, cable news, the internet, market day trading, the cars you're allowed to buy, public and private building temperatures (it's not like he has no precedent on that issue), etc., etc., etc, aaaaannd etc.

Even with 20 years of saluting behind me, I've had more freedom in my life than most Americans have because a) it's available to those who really pursue it and b) I pursued the hell out of it. Thus maybe I resent more than most people this administration's unprecedented putsch to very dramatically curtail it. If that makes me a ripe target for personally vetted centrist and near right facts and opinions, so be it.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14153

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not only has none of the scores of pundits I've seen discussing health care said it should not be available to everyone, but every one has expressly stated on the record that it SHOULD be available to everyone. However, no rational non-socialist says it -- or any other commodity -- must be identical and identically available for everyone at the taxpayer's expense. Why the hell shouldn't Bill Gates be allowed to buy a service or product I can't afford? He earned his money from voluntary purchases by people like me. I could have bought better insurance, a faster car, or more Starbucks coffee with the many thousands of dollars I've spent on computers.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1945

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isobars

I, for one, am not taking "target" on anyone. If any of my comments appear directed at you, personally, that is not intended. I have/will respond if you direct them at me first though.

So, that said. I respect and support your view of personal rights and freendoms. You and I probably both have enjoyed a higher level of personal freedom than most in this country.

I do not believe, however, that personal freedoms have much any more to do with health care. I think this ship sailed a long time ago. Now, its time to make this work!

Currently, the government has its hands on nearly 50% of health care. I am not prepared to say, O.K., governement out of health care.

If one wants seniors dying in their homes, children contracting diseases from lack of immunizations, crippled and sick soldiers painfully dealing with war injuries and the mentally ill roaming (in larger numbers) on the streets. Discontinue government involvement.

I would rather we try and build a system that is a combination of government, industry, providers and RESPONSIBLE consumers. I also believe we are a compassionate society and will take care of those that NEED it.

Repubs, Demos, Greenies,Righties. Everyone needs to influence this process. BUT moving ahead!
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1945

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isobars said
Quote:
Not only has none of the scores of pundits I've seen discussing health care said it should not be available to everyone, but every one has expressly stated on the record that it SHOULD be available to everyone. However, no rational non-socialist says it -- or any other commodity -- must be identical and identically available for everyone at the taxpayer's expense. Why the hell shouldn't Bill Gates be allowed to buy a service or product I can't afford? He earned his money from voluntary purchases by people like me. I could have bought better insurance, a faster car, or more Starbucks coffee with the many thousands of dollars I've spent on computers.


I agree completely with this. While you believe, and you may be correct, that the left does not want any multi-tier health care system, I think it WILL be part of our health care delivery. Some of the methods for decreasing costs, including the greater use of clinics to deliver care, may not be palatable to some. Pay more and get more. I am fine with that.

The trick to making this a part of the system is to have the parties work together to mold this system. Still room for that!
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5811

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:

"...every citizen of the United States should have access to basic health care.


isobars wrote:

"They already do.

Next topic?"


Leave to isobars to leave out something quite important that coboardhead said in his comments. That would be the following:

"BTW, there are not 50 million people without care right now, just no organized method to pay for their care!"

How convenient to look the other way and ignore an important element of the recent healthcare reform and claim in effect that the discussion is over. I think a crucial element in the reform is to begin addressing care in a proactive way before allowing health care problems escalate to a serious, and even life threatening levels. By giving all Americans reasonable access to early preventive care will significantly reduce medical costs in the long run, and I think most sensible folks understand this, even responsible Republicans.

What I think is most often overlooked by those protesting most vehemently about the mandate associated with healthcare reform is that everything is great until it isn't. To find out you're seriously ill or injured and not have health insurance has got to be hell.

It's high time for all Americans to be responsible for their health, and that means being suitably prepared for the unexpected. It's not enough to be foolish like isobars and believe that society is responsible for the uninsured both medically and financially.
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