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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1922

PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac

I did find your previous post in a forum on health care.

I will take a look through the postings. No need to rehash. I am sure this will be an ongoing topic.


Thanks
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13998

PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
The real danger with the presentation of some of the numbers and the "myths" right now, is that a lot of voters really do respond to the sound bites.


The vast preponderance of myths are coming straight from the White House teleprompters, in full sentences, context and intent, according to:
• The CBO.
• Virtually every health care cost study.
• The small and Blue Chip employers and universities dropping health care coverage.
• The already! rising insurance costs.
• The tens (heading towards hundreds) of thousands of physicians refusing to accept any government health care plans.
• Berwick's self-professed love affair with the failed UK health care model, specifically including rationing for seniors by deliberately capping health care's quantity and quality (his own stated objective).
• The administration's own stated objective of converting us to a single-payer government-run universal health care system (aka socialized medicine) within 15-20 years (Obama), preferably immediately (Frank).
• Holdren's adamant published support of eugenics.
• Sebelius' extremist abortion positions at involuntary taxpayer expense.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1922

PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that the demo's,repubs and teas are all guilty of the "sound bite" and data distortion.

I really don't think we will head to an English model of health care delivery. At this time, however, we are approaching a system where nearly 50% of the payments to providers already filters through, is provided directly by, or directly paid for by the governments (state, federal, school systems etc).

The Canadian model is a possibility with this high of a percentage. This really comes down to insurance company profitability with the new rules and regulations.

None of the physicians I know (Maybe 70 personally), are quitting, that have not reached retirement age. There has been some concern, expressed in medical journals, that the cost and time to implement electronic medical records may drive older physicians into early retirement, employment with large providers or government clinics (re VA).

To combat that trend (there will be a shortage in physicians), hospitals are already ramping up their efforts to absorb physician practices and provide the services in house. Even in rural areas.

Anyone who believes the current system is sustainable, is not doing the math. Rationing of care is a real possibility if we do NOT move ahead with a new health plan. Currently, folks with private insurance are financing the care of the uninsured, medicare reimbursement is often a joke, and anti-trust laws make it difficult for physicians to collectively bargain with insurance companies.

I have not read the final version of the plan, yet. The early version, I read, took me a weekend. I will get back to you when I have read this.
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feuser



Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1393

PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:

• Holdren's adamant published support of eugenics.


Take any item of Mike's list and Google it to see just how deep his stack of lies and misrepresentations really is:

http://www.scienceprogress.org/2009/07/hold-of-holdren-again/
Quote:

In 1977, more than thirty years ago, Holdren was the third author (with Paul and Anne Ehrlich) of a textbook entitled Ecoscience: Population, Resources, and Environment. It was a gigantic tome, fully 1,051 pages in length. In one vast 66 page chapter devoted to “Population Policies,” the authors surveyed a gamut of measures that had been undertaken or considered to control human population growth—including the most extreme. Those included coercive or “involuntary fertility control” measures, such as forced abortions and sterilizations.

However, to describe these measures is different from advocating them. And in fact, the Ehrlichs and Holdren concluded by arguing that noncoercive measures were what they suppported: “A far better choice, in our view, is to expand the use of milder methods of influencing family size preferences”—such as birth control and access to abortions. In fairness, their text does read as dated today, ripe for quote mining. They were writing in very different times thirty years ago; but even if they were defending these positions then (and they weren’t), that hardly means that they do today.

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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13998

PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
I agree that the demo's,repubs and teas are all guilty of the "sound bite" and data distortion.

I really don't think we will head to an English model of health care delivery.


You do know it's Berwick's ideal model, right, and that my list above isn't sound bites but stated goals and facts? If you think those are just TR stuff, you need to start doing your own research rather than listening to the lies from the left about those facts and about where I get my data. Besides, the Canadian health care system is not worthy of a second-world, let alone fully civilized, country, according to its own government's and health care system's evaluations.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1922

PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not suggesting that we adopt the Canadian model. I am just saying it is closer to a reality than the British model, because our current system is already largely government supplied, financed or managed.

I have several friends who practice in Canada. Lots of issues with that system. Not a goal for us, in my view.

My information on the health care plan comes mostly from reading the actual document, albiet the first pass, personal experience running my wife's practice for ten years, attending seminars with the local medical staff, discussing it with my close friends (who are mostly MD's), and reading articles in the medical journals.

On top of that, I do gather some information from NPR, politicians, web pages, publications (WSJ for example) and forums. However, these sources seem more politicized.

I will admit, with this amount of information available, I have not tried talk radio.

Regardless of what the goals are, or perceived to be, by our government, the final health care plan, I feel, is going to be uniquely American. Why? Because we have been very good at solving problems, and I know so many folks involved in HC.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13998

PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
My information on the health care plan comes mostly from reading the actual document

I will admit, with this amount of information available, I have not tried talk radio.


As does mine; it's my first source for fact-checking claims I hear in any media (about what is or isn't in the plan).

IMO, TR is not a news source; its forte, and its function in my life, is as a heads-up on issues often not found in the declining old guard media.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3311

PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MIke has never seen the Health Bill. He really wants to pretend that he gets his info direct instead of constantly parroting the least reliable media outlets.
How many pages of the health bill have you read Mike and where did you get your copy?
.Iso "
...My information on the health care plan comes mostly from reading the actual document....
As does mine; it's my first source for fact-checking claims I hear in any media...."
Remember when you told us about the death panels?Could you tell us which page those are on?
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feuser



Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1393

PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
....Besides, the Canadian health care system is not worthy of a second-world, let alone fully civilized, country, according to its own government's and health care system's evaluations.


Strange that Isobars knows all this but Canadians don't seem to. They're so uninformed about the reasons for the failings of their own health care system that 86% of them favor "public solutions" to make it better.

http://www.nupge.ca/node/2486

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florian - ny22

http://www.windsurfing.kasail.com/
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5745

PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, I think that coboardhead might be right about the uniquely American model. Still though, I have to credit the Obama Administration and Democrats in Congress with getting us started on a more pragmatic path. Really, a huge step forward, despite all the right wing nonsense being generated right now.

The tea party folks and the Republicans talk about personal responsibility and a smaller government, but I'm not clear on how they feel about paying for care for those without healthcare, and particularly the illegal immigrants working here for American businesses, in agriculture and practically in all basic service based small businesses in our communities.

In my view, that's the hypocrisy from the right. They've got nothing.
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