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BOYCOTT THE TOO BIG TO FAILS!
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5180

PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In order to extract myself from this discussion, and to avoid being confounded by research from such renowned and credible sources as Wikipedia, I will concede...........this is not a hugely complex issue, many years in the making, with an array of bad judgments by banks, insurance companies, consumers, both sides of Congress and regulators.......it's much simpler than that........it was all you-know-who's fault........and probably his Dad too!!
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe wrote:
In order to extract myself from this discussion, and to avoid being confounded by research from such renowned and credible sources as Wikipedia, I will concede...........this is not a hugely complex issue, many years in the making, with an array of bad judgments by banks, insurance companies, consumers, both sides of Congress and regulators.......it's much simpler than that........it was all you-know-who's fault........and probably his Dad too!!


Well now that you understand it was all a GOP conspiracy -- as was the attempted underpants bombing, according to left wing TR host Brian Maloney with some support from Keith Olbermann (before any of you professional deniers deny this one, I suggest you Google it and listen to the tapes and read the transcripts) -- we can lay to rest all those silly theories you list. Dang, I don't know why you and I waste our time reading and watching the news; these internet doods obviously know more than Barron's and Forbes and Buffett and Trump and Wharton and Harvard Business and WSJ and virtually every recent investment and personal finance book I can find at Barnes & Noble ... plus this one big red book called something like "Too Big To Fail".

As I type, liberal TR hosts Leslie Marshall and Ellis Hennican are criticizing the Democratic party on live TV for hiding the health care bill finalization behind closed doors after Obama promised over and over and over to broadcast them.


Last edited by isobars on Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588

PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to offer a big yawn in response to isobars's last post. Our right wing nutcase is simply trying too hard. Who the hell cares what TR or cable TV says, and that goes both ways.

Damn, what an amateur.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17736
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh come on mrgybe. If you can't take the response, don't put bs out there. The total amount of subprime loans is in the multiple trillions, but it is hard to run down exactly. And this clearly was not solely a Republican run operation, lots of Demo political ops (Rubin was Dem, Weill gave to both parties) were involved. The point is that the subprime disaster was created for Sandy Weill by Phil Gramm, and while Fannie and Freddie joined--and were bullied into it by both politicians, including Dodd, and other banks, they were neither the cause nor a particularly large part of the damage. All of that, of course, is contrary to Republican doctrine. If you have more accurate facts, dare to put them out here, with citations.
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5180

PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
If you have more accurate facts, dare to put them out here, with citations.


Science is built up of facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house.

Henri Poincare
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17736
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And...
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5180

PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
And...


I think you missed my point.........we can each selectively dredge up a pile of "facts" to bolster our arguments......many of those "facts" are likely to be others analysis or statistics slanted to prove a point. That could be a never ending exchange......and to to what end? To demonstrate that one of us is smarter than the other? I've learned through long experience that it is not a good use of my time to trade "facts" with someone whose mind is already made up.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17736
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And you utterly missed mine. I did a substantial amount of research on the factors that led to the economic crisis, and posted it here over a year ago. The fundamental driver was the dramatic increase in subprime loans, and the parceling out of those as tranches. It was the direct intent of the deregulation effort, which was bi-partisan, but led by Wall Street. One of the fundamental sources for my research was the a moderate Republican politician's speech in New York about all of the benefits of deregulation. So this was a failure of greed, and the capture of both parties to withstand greed, and a dramatic increase in debt service. Isobars would have it that this is all the greedy consumer, and not notice the hard advertising and emphasis on borrowing. Credit card debt is another aspect. If we don't understand it, we're doomed to repeat it. And I think the battle now is over regulation. I absolutely agree that Glass-Steagall needed reform, but it should be an open process, and not led by Phill Gramm, or done in conference committee with no hearings or dicussions. You could make the same statement about modifications to the health care bill.

The defensive response of the Republicans to the fiscal meltdown, which occured on their watch and was in a major way caused by one of their deregulatory gurus, was that this was all the fault of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. You repeated this, which is why I commented. Those organizations did bad things, and the blame for those bad things falls almost entirely on Democrats. But that was a response to the overall credit binge, and was a trailing indicator, not a cause. Do your own research, and total up total credit card debt, bad subprime loans, and bad Freddie/Fanny loans and report it here if you want.

You're welcome to stay up on the porch, but if you come down on the lawn with phony facts, know that some of us do research.

Mac
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5180

PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
The defensive response of the Republicans to the fiscal meltdown, which occured on their watch and was in a major way caused by one of their deregulatory gurus, was that this was all the fault of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. You repeated this, which is why I commented.


No I didn't...........


I suggest you try windsurfing.....it will make you a little less wound up.

For every minute you remain angry, you give up sixty seconds of peace of mind.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

(I have a lifetime's collection of these great lines........it's terrific to be able to use them!!)
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17736
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mrgybe--reread this, thinking I might have to apologize. Not quite. It is Isobars who made the most outrageous and inaccurate claims, and much of your post was actually logical and made sense. But you did say these two things:

The banks handed out money like drunken sailors for years........they did so partly due to pressure from Congress to make loans to low income customers, partly because they had the security blanket of Fannie Mae/ Freddie Mac and a variety of insurance products they believed would insulate them from risk, and partly due to greed for easy profits that ran roughshod over proper risk management. It would be easy to blame Bush, but this started well before he took office....there is plenty of blame to go around here.
I respectfully disagree the potential burden from Washington is not part of the equation.
[quote]

True that there is enough to blame, and if you didn't mean to imply that Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae were causes and side with the anti-regulatory crew that helped stimulate this bubble, maybe you want to be more careful in your writing. I saw no mention in your comments of the various things that stimulated the bubble, including the deregulation and deliberate lack of oversight during the Bush administration.

About anger, I wouldn't respond at all if I thought you were completely of Isobars (angry) ilk. I enjoy an argument in which I learn something, and I'm a happy guy. Remember, don't assign motives without enough information.
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