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Afghanistan, the war that will not go away
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5207

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

6 million Vietnamese died in the second anti-Imperial war in Vietnam, and about 55,000 US soldiers. And now Walter Cronkite is responsible? As their general said in "The Fog of War," they'd have fought us forever. Now the Middle East is very different from Vietnam in a lot of ways, most particularly the presence and proselytization of a violent sect of Islam. But if Isobars didn't learn the fundamental lesson of anti-Imperialism, how will he ever understand the degree to which the presence of invaders is the main fuel supporting the current conflagration?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14162

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tradewinds wrote:
Isobars- I wish/can only hope you are correct about the surge being a success. But I think that the minute we pull out- whether it me now or in 5 years from now there will be chaos and a growth of radical Islamism/Muslimism. ...Maybe it will go the way you suggest- more control over the extremists to the point that the locals can keep it under control after we leave


I don't suggest that at all. I don't even have a lot of faith in it. Nor do I make assessments about issues that big; I just parrot the pros who do. But even most liberal pundits and politicians concede that "the surge worked", in that it halted and reversed the momentum the insurgency had achieved and helped develop a government that has a fighting chance to keep the terrorists from building a major base of operations centered in Iraq.

The rest is up to relentless, powerful global pressure on radical Islamic terrorists, led by the most powerful man and military in the world. Even after that man's lack of comprehension of that fact costs many thousands more American civilian lives, a few million idiots who care only about a free ride through life -- and the three remaining Americans who still deny the threat exists -- will still vote for him.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5816

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The rest is up to relentless, powerful global pressure on radical Islamic terrorists, led by the most powerful man and military in the world. Even after that man's lack of comprehension of that fact costs many thousands more American civilian lives, a few million idiots who care only about a free ride through life -- and the three remaining Americans who still deny the threat exists -- will still vote for him."

What kind of nonsense is this?

This is why I have highlighted isobars lack of sophistication, particularly in his delivery. The continued rabid and insulting views of our president, and the leaders in Congress, is clearly off the mark. He should be ashamed. Although leaders in our government can be criticized for their actions on either side of the aisle, I would hope for better than I'm seeing from the bombastic neo-conservative right. The fact that isobars is "parroting" the extremism from angry and hateful factions shows up like a terribly sore thumb.

What does that mean? isobars is scoring zero points here. Still though, repeatedly he's not getting the picture. I'm not expecting that he would see or appreciate our side of American values and goals, to include the myriad of actions presently being taken by our leaders, but the fact that he's not getting any smarter in his diatribes here reflects poorly on his understanding of the audience here. Without a doubt, he can't stand back and see himself as others do. Instead, any strong opposition to his simplistic view of the world is ultimately censored. This guy should be living in Iran, or some other mixed up place where censorship is a central governmental strategy is designed to keep freedom away. Then maybe, just maybe, he'd begin to see the picture.


Last edited by swchandler on Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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feuser



Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1395

PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tradewinds wrote:
Very interesting points feuser. I haven’t studied the religion – only pick up what I hear from the news so there’s a lot I don’t know.

But even if Islam is not hierarchical to the extent the Catholic religion is as in priests to bishops to archbishops to the Pope- I have heard that the local Imam (or whatever else they are named in different areas) have a huge influence on their community.

So are you saying that there is a lot of pressure for the Islamic leaders to lean toward radical/ strict Islamic rule and not favor any Western/modern ways? (is that what you mean by Islam is in turmoil--moderates hanging by a thread—pressure from West further destabilizes the situation” (destabilizes the moderates?) ?)

And that some of that is due to Bush’s asinine abuse of power to use 9/11 as an excuse to finally try to gain more power in the oil rich Middle East-ie:war?

So if there is no or little hierarchy- what are these Imams afraid of? Who do they have to answer to? Why can’t they be more vocal about being anti “jihad”/ anti-violent/ and in support of peace? ESPECIALLY the ones in the US?

It just seems to me that there should be more vocalizing from Islamists and Muslims that they are against terrorism-esp. from the leaders. So I disagree with you that we shouldn’t expect them to address the “fringe” of their religion. Because there are more and more people joining that “fringe” and they are doing it in the name of that religion. So who is going to claim what the religion stands for? Only the fringe? Or the “leaders?

I am perplexed that you said “all islamic officials or leaders - even the Taliban - were unified in the condemnation of the crime that had been perpetrated”. Seriously? The Taliban? and all Islamic officials? That’s not what I remember about the reaction after 9/11. But I was only watching the mainstream news at that time. But even so- I do find that doubtful. But I agree with you that the war exacerbated ill feelings toward the US by many Muslims (Islamists?) in the Middle East (anger mostly due to Palestine???).

If the leaders and Muslims and Islamists don’t feel a need to speak out against terrorism and the goal of making the whole world Muslim… and killing Americans – then I don’t think they should be granted “no profiling” when it comes to entering the US, flying into and within the US, and in all aspects of living in the US ... I think we SHOULD profile. It just makes sense. I’m sorry but political correctness is just insane when it comes to who comes into the US and who is here already. It’s so insane that I get the full pat down 3 times in a year going from OAK to PDX with an Irish name and on a route I have taken about 4 times a year for 20 years and never rent a car…. (therefore I’m obviously going to visit people- any lame brain could figure that out. and how many Irish people publicly vow to kill Americans?)… and yet time and time again they don’t do better background checks on a group of which some publicly state they want to kill Americans… I’m sorry I know it’s not PC—all I’m saying is do better investigating where it makes sense. Americans are becoming a bunch of wooses with their PC’ness. Notice it was a non-Amercian that flung over a bunch of rows to get to the Nigerian guy with the explosives? I want to be in planes with some non-Americans from now on. And our Homeland Security whatever she is—“everything happened like it’s suppose to”?!!!!!!! I want my tax money that pays for homeland security back! ‘Cause if the best they can do is count on people like the Netherlands guy to hop over a bunch of rows to take down a terrorist then I’m gonna spend my homeland security tax money on my own personal Netherlands guy as a body guard. !

Seriously- it shouldn’t be taken personally- it should just be accepted that due to the current circumstances there will be closer investigating on certain groups until things are different. Nothing personal for the masses that are not terrorists- and they want to be safe too. I don’t see why that is so wrong.

Lastly- my heart goes out to the Iranians! I pray for the many brave progressives! That government is bad news. I hope Obama does a great job on this one. Like he needs another HUGE important challenge!



The structure of Islamic religious culture is complex and I am in no position to comment on that. What I understand is that there is no chain of command centrally governing the Imams or regional religious leaders. In the absence of a functional political system, these people are in fact community leaders with very concrete secular powers. They stand in many cases in competition to one another and one of the very few ways to distinguish themselves from the next one is their stance towards western cultural and political influence.

A similar mechanism seems to be at work in Iran... a country with a a highly developed culture, high literacy rates, internet access etc, that to our surprise continues have strong support if not an actual majority mandate for a regime of thugs - in spite of the current protests. My understanding is that Ahmadinejad has the US to thank for his entire political career. Literally every time pressure is exerted or sanctions imposed, the entire country rallies around the hard-liners. What would continued posturing gain us that it hasn't during the GWB administration? And what is the alternative? I believe Obama is doing exactly the right thing by letting this play out.

Regarding PC - I'd like to hear first hand how treating humans of all races with the same degree of dignity has ever prevented someone from administering and enforcing the law. I understand how someone of Anglo-Saxon descent doesn't get why he has to be searched to the same degree as someone who is obviously apparently a foreigner. Let me give you two reasons: 1. Being profiled - i.e. being pulled out and singled out EVERY single time highly frustrates the affected person. Especially so, if that person also takes the same trip several times a year for 20 years. This creates tremendous anger and at least undermines the willingness of an individual to cooperate. 2. Profiling makes spot-check law enforcement predictible and thereby completely destroys its effectiveness.

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joew



Joined: 18 Jul 1999
Posts: 152

PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some random responses: Someone forgot to mention that the crotch bombers handlers, were two Saudi national former Gitmo detainees, released by the Bush administration to a Saudi reeducation program, which apparently is as Mickey Mouse as any thing else done in that country without the the direct supervision of foreign nationals on the payroll (sad but true). When a Dutch cartoonist parodies the prophet mohammed, a firestorm of worldwide muslim outrage ensues, but when a Pakistani taliban suicide bomber blows himself up in a mosque, killing innocent lives, we hear nothing from the "street" Overt US aid from any agency to the Iranian democracy protesters would play directly into the hands of the hard liners claims of "foriegn interventionist attempting to destabilize the legitimate govt.of Iran" The history of Iran,is littered with ham handed manipulation of the countries internal affairs, to keep the oil flowing at the lowest price, and to maintain a pro western bulwark aganst Soviet expansionism. The Iranians need to have sole ownership of their movement, to legitimize it and to succeed.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14162

PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tradewinds wrote:
My government is such an embaressment!


That apparently never changes, no matter who's in charge. Giving power to idiots just creates powerful idiots.

Mike
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windoggie



Joined: 22 Feb 2002
Posts: 2396

PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

powerful idiot.
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feuser



Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1395

PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joew wrote:
When a Dutch cartoonist parodies the prophet mohammed, a firestorm of worldwide muslim outrage ensues, but when a Pakistani taliban suicide bomber blows himself up in a mosque, killing innocent lives, we hear nothing from the "street" ...


Actually, that bombing of the Red Mosque in Islamabad created a huge rift between terrorists and even the hard core islamists in the area - the Taliban included.

It was surely an underreported event, but the western media at the time neither saw the significance nor had they an involvement of a western party to report. I am sure that yet again "the surge" will be credited with the success when the AlQuaida has managed to bomb themselves out of popular support.

There's hope, if the NATO forces manage to become slightly less unpopular than suicide bombers in the markets (i.e. kill less civilians).

You know how fucked up something is when you mean to post something positive and it sounds like the darkest kind of sarcasm...

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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3356

PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"But even most liberal pundits and politicians concede that "the surge worked",
The head of that military effort, on the three occasions I have heard him discuss it, said about the surge:
More boots on the ground always helps but the biggest help has come from the Awakening.
This local Sunnis movement could not exist in the first years of the war because we treated all Sunni leaders as the enemy. When the US military finally got good leadership, the Awakening was being promoted quietly by foreign journalists including Al Jazeera and Mike Weir, who could talk to these folks without Bushs permission.
Our present military leaders there are a lot more competent and they are using this movement to help us win. On one of the few talk radio programs I heard in recent years some idiot was attacking the military for giving arms to these guys. This smacks of treason to me and is one reason I so dislike Talk Radio A##holes who keep Conservatives confused and unable to recognize the enemy.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3356

PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone notice that since the change in US government, and a change in policy towards blowing our mouths off about Iran, we are now WINNING?My Irani friend asked me to post that.
A little understanding goes a long way in dealing with other nations, and making America safe.
Now when our gov. insults other nations we apologize despite the far right screaming F!U!s to both our gov, our moderate conservatives, and even Americas winning policies, along with Os mistakes
By the way you should not call Mike a neoconservative as an insult. This is not correct, they believe something else. Even Beck is not a Neo, along with all the talk hosts I to whom have paid any attention. Remember- talk guys don't use facts or political movements. They survey the public and give "facts" and "opinions" based on what the audience of mostly older, aggravated, uneducated, blue collar listeners wants to hear.
Sean Hannity explained this once on the air when he was a talk show host I listened to in Kansas City.
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